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Thread: Plate carving

  1. #1
    Butch
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    Default Plate carving

    I'm looking for some ideas to brighten my day on plate carving. I don't have many tools (just ibex finger planes and a few chisels) I'm looking to remove the bulk wood from my wedged f5 plate....I've put some hours in with the planes and chisels as well as an orbital sander. Its actually my 2nd plate because of error on the 1st. I'm sure there are a few small tricks that might take a little frustration off of my mind without buying expensive accessories and tips on how to treat different areas of the top while carving. Maybe some free handing ideas? carving techniques? I know hand carving is a long cramping process but I would love some advice from you gentlemen! Especially John Hamlett if he has a free moment! I look forward to the input

  2. #2
    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plate carving

    I free hand the back plates using a disc grinder. Then transition to a orbital sander.

    For the tops I use a router attached to a sled and terrace the top. Then switch to an orbital sander.

    The inside of both plates are drilled out rough, then chisels and finger planes, topped off with an orbital sander to smooth them out.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Plate carving

    Do you own a drill press? You can remove alot of wood and give a good idea of how far you have left to carve if you set depths on your drill press by using a forstner bit to drill to depth. Be careful to set the depth shallow to give you room to work it down to final thickness by hand . You will need to construct a support when drilling the inside by taking the outline of the top and reducing it by a quarter inch or so, and cutting this pattern out of a block of wood. You can then lay the top upside down and secure it to the cradle with some c clamps. Im sure there a are a few vids on youtube of the process.

    However, I carved my first top nearly completely by hand, and my second and third top using disc sanders on a drill press. The first top turned out far better than the second two. For beginners especially, using power tools to speed up the process can actually slow you down in the long run.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Plate carving

    I've never wrecked a plate using hand tools! Can't say that about power tools. I am going to try contour cutting again with my Wagner power planer. Maybe. I'm pretty fast and clean with a gouge.

    Copy carver is likely the reasonable thing unless you've got a really good eye and hand with the various on the drill press rigs. I might try one myself.
    Stephen Perry

  5. #5
    Butch
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    Default Re: Plate carving

    Quote Originally Posted by pianoman89 View Post
    Do you own a drill press? You can remove alot of wood and give a good idea of how far you have left to carve if you set depths on your drill press by using a forstner bit to drill to depth. Be careful to set the depth shallow to give you room to work it down to final thickness by hand . You will need to construct a support when drilling the inside by taking the outline of the top and reducing it by a quarter inch or so, and cutting this pattern out of a block of wood. You can then lay the top upside down and secure it to the cradle with some c clamps. Im sure there a are a few vids on youtube of the process.

    However, I carved my first top nearly completely by hand, and my second and third top using disc sanders on a drill press. The first top turned out far better than the second two. For beginners especially, using power tools to speed up the process can actually slow you down in the long run.
    I do own a 12 speed drill press, and I have tried a slight version of that method and I didn't care a whole lot for it. It seemed like it was a little rough on the wood, even when I took off the slightest amount of wood (brand new bit)

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Plate carving

    Some steps need to be done before you get to other steps or the process can get out of hand.

    First make sure the bottom (inside) of the plate is flat, as this is your gluing surface for attaching to the sides.

    Second i cut out the basic shape to closely match the rim (sides), and establish the edge thickness. I do this with a drill press by setting the quill stop to leave between 1/4" and 3/16" and drill all round the edge and in for about an inch except near the scroll and button of the heel. Think of your shapes and how they stand and flow, then make sure you don't cut too much away.

    Next I establish the long arch and cross arch, for which I have made templates to check progress as the carving evolves.

    It becomes obvious what needs to be removed at this point to fair the arches and shapes together. Once you have made the outside of the plate as perfect as you can muster, only then do you drill the inside to get your graduations. I set the quill stop for the thickest areas and drill those, then step by step work down to the recurve area which is my minimum thickness. I drill about 1/2" grid and then can carve mindlessly to the bottoms of the holes.

    I tried using a forstner and large twist drills to remove as much material as possible but found by using 1/4" or smaller the actual carving was much easier with the finger planes because they would glide on the wood and through the holes rather than bumping against the blocky and chunky surface left by the larger drills.

    There is no quick way of getting through this with finger planes but this sequence will allow you to see the shape emerging and you will end with a part you can use and be proud of. The biggest pitfall is to hurry because you are bored or tired. Just take what time it requires and work with intent and build your skill, and you will get to the end. Isn't this fun?

  7. #7
    Butch
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    Default Re: Plate carving

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Lewis View Post
    Some steps need to be done before you get to other steps or the process can get out of hand.

    First make sure the bottom (inside) of the plate is flat, as this is your gluing surface for attaching to the sides.

    Second i cut out the basic shape to closely match the rim (sides), and establish the edge thickness. I do this with a drill press by setting the quill stop to leave between 1/4" and 3/16" and drill all round the edge and in for about an inch except near the scroll and button of the heel. Think of your shapes and how they stand and flow, then make sure you don't cut too much away.

    Next I establish the long arch and cross arch, for which I have made templates to check progress as the carving evolves.

    It becomes obvious what needs to be removed at this point to fair the arches and shapes together. Once you have made the outside of the plate as perfect as you can muster, only then do you drill the inside to get your graduations. I set the quill stop for the thickest areas and drill those, then step by step work down to the recurve area which is my minimum thickness. I drill about 1/2" grid and then can carve mindlessly to the bottoms of the holes.

    I tried using a forstner and large twist drills to remove as much material as possible but found by using 1/4" or smaller the actual carving was much easier with the finger planes because they would glide on the wood and through the holes rather than bumping against the blocky and chunky surface left by the larger drills.

    There is no quick way of getting through this with finger planes but this sequence will allow you to see the shape emerging and you will end with a part you can use and be proud of. The biggest pitfall is to hurry because you are bored or tired. Just take what time it requires and work with intent and build your skill, and you will get to the end. Isn't this fun?
    Thanks for the guidance...I really appreciate it! Any photos of helpful jig/jigs would be helpful if its not too much trouble.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Plate carving

    If you prefer not to use drill bits in fear of damaging the wood, you can quickly remove wood on the convex side of the plate using a drill press using a small sanding disc. You set the desired depth between the disk and the shelf, and work your way around the edge of your plate. As you reduce the distance between shelf and disc, work your way towards the edge of the plate. This will leave you with a "terraced" affect that can be worked down to final contour with finger planes.

  9. #9
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Plate carving

    I usually draw topogaphic map of arch heights 3/16" and incrememts of 1/16" from there on surface of the wedges and drill to appropriate depth with 5mm drillbit all around the plate. Then remove as much wood with gouge (approx 3/4" wide, approx. 1" diameter shape). Working with gouge goes best across the plate from edge to centerline in overlapping long strokes not necessarily too deep at once, perhaps 1/8" thick shavings depending on wood hardness (gouge must be razor sharp to cut smoothly that long shavings). I use the gouge till I start seeing bottoms of the holes then I mark them with pencil and continue till they are barely visible. If your topo map is correct and drilled holes as well than you can go to fingerplanes and just remove tool marks. Spruce top takes 2 hours at most to scraped clean surface maple back can be 3-4 hours.
    Adrian

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  11. #10
    Registered User David Houchens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plate carving

    My biggest advice is learn to go slow and make it enjoyable.
    Roughing in can be done many ways. I used to use a safety planer on the drill press to make a terraced arch, set the scroll height, etc..... Then to the finger planes. I do all the inside with my finger planes. Late nights when the phones not ringing, nice low angle lighting, Oscar Peterson on the stereo and it didn't matter how long it took, great therapy. At least until my arthritis starts hollering.
    When my hands got bad I built a homemade duplicarver to do the outside. Still do the insides with finger planes. I would like to go cnc but funding and the gray matter needed to program have kept that as a future project.

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  13. #11

    Default Re: Plate carving

    Bryce how does your duplicator work for you? I was going to suggest something like this, as I build one once, but for inlay type work. Several quality drawer slides for x, y axis and hinges for z. Worked pretty well. Do you have a pic of yours?

  14. #12
    Butch
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    Default Re: Plate carving

    Quote Originally Posted by HoGo View Post
    I usually draw topogaphic map of arch heights 3/16" and incrememts of 1/16" from there on surface of the wedges and drill to appropriate depth with 5mm drillbit all around the plate. Then remove as much wood with gouge (approx 3/4" wide, approx. 1" diameter shape). Working with gouge goes best across the plate from edge to centerline in overlapping long strokes not necessarily too deep at once, perhaps 1/8" thick shavings depending on wood hardness (gouge must be razor sharp to cut smoothly that long shavings). I use the gouge till I start seeing bottoms of the holes then I mark them with pencil and continue till they are barely visible. If your topo map is correct and drilled holes as well than you can go to fingerplanes and just remove tool marks. Spruce top takes 2 hours at most to scraped clean surface maple back can be 3-4 hours.
    What is the best way to gather your depth information for the guide holes across the arch?

  15. #13
    Registered User bennyb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plate carving

    Don't know if you already have a topo map, Butch, but if not, you can go to Andrew Mowry's download page and download the F-5 map.

  16. #14
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    Default Re: Plate carving

    For a basic description of the drill press method for marking plate arches, see Bob Benedetto's book on archtop guitar making. Iirc, there is also some stuff in the first few volumes of The "Big Red Books" of American Lutherie. You can generate your own contour lines, and elevations for each of the contour lines, for any archtop instrument you can think of using my article on curtate cycloid arching in American Lutherie #96. The curtate cycloid arch is not an exact match for golden age violin cross arching, but it comes closer than any other simple function. If you want a very close match to golden age arching, and can stomach crunching numbers from a long expression for a best-fit curve, search R.M./ Mottola's website, liutaiomottola.com.

  17. #15

    Default Re: Plate carving

    You were looking for pics and I came across this one posted by Steve Stahl in an long running thread. I know its not a pic of the process, but this is what I was trying to describe using a drill press and sanding disc...
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Hope this helps

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  19. #16
    Registered User Mike Conner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plate carving

    Butch,
    I follow a Benedetto style process for carving the plates. I documented the process in my journal posted here:
    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...+build+journal

    This is for guitar shaped plates, but the method is the same.

    A red maple or walnut back plate takes me about 10 hours total. First the outside arch surface is carved, then guide holes drilled from the inside surface to define the rough plate thickness.

  20. #17
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Plate carving

    Quote Originally Posted by Butch Heath View Post
    What is the best way to gather your depth information for the guide holes across the arch?
    Draw as many crossections of arch over the outline as you dare and mark the spots of given heights. Connect points with same elevation with smooth line and there you go.
    Or buy a set of drawings that contain this information.
    Adrian

  21. #18
    Butch
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    Default Re: Plate carving

    Quote Originally Posted by HoGo View Post
    Draw as many crossections of arch over the outline as you dare and mark the spots of given heights. Connect points with same elevation with smooth line and there you go.
    Or buy a set of drawings that contain this information.
    I have your Loar plans with the contour maps. Whats the best method to transfer those topo lines to the plate? The problem is that I have already done some wood removal with a gouge and sander so there is already an arch, but nothing close yet.

  22. #19
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Plate carving

    Quote Originally Posted by Butch Heath View Post
    I have your Loar plans with the contour maps. Whats the best method to transfer those topo lines to the plate? The problem is that I have already done some wood removal with a gouge and sander so there is already an arch, but nothing close yet.
    I just took large piece of thin clear plastic (I believe I just torn one of the clear plastic holders of office paper sheets- no idea how it is called in the US) and drew centerline with black permanent marker. Placed it over the drawings and transferred the lines to the plastic. Then I just pin this sheet on the centerline of the wood and draw a points 1/2" apart on the wood with very sharp very hard pencil (mason pencil) that stabs easily right through the plastic. I do one half, flip over and then other half. When all pointsare transferred I just draw over them with pencil to make them more visible. Then do the drilling.
    Adrian

  23. #20
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plate carving

    Quote Originally Posted by Butch Heath View Post
    Especially John Hamlett if he has a free moment!
    Well, I haven't been on line much lately, and at this point I don't have much to add to the discussion, but here's a little about my methods.
    As has been said, wasting wood can be done an number of ways. Sometimes I send back wood out to be rough carved on a friend's CNC machine. For tops, I use the Saf-T-Planer in the drill press to waste wood from the outside of the plate, drill depth gauge holes after the arch is done, waste wood from the inside starting with a 1" bent gouge then progress to finger planes, scrapers and sandpaper.
    As for establishing the arch, I no longer use templates but simply "eyeball" the arch. I start with a chosen center height, slightly higher for softer top woods and slightly lower for harder, stiffer top woods. Back arches don't vary much. I side-light the arch while carving and I use a marking gauge to maintain symmetry and to keep the arch shaped like I want it.

    My depth gauge holes are set for an even thickness. I carve the plate to an even thickness then evaluate it's stiffness and weight. From there, I usually thin the whole plate (nearly always because I try to leave plenty of wood for graduating) until the stiffness starts to feel "right", then I decide on a thickness for the area of minimal thickness that roughly corresponds to the re-curve. I carve that thickness all around (leaving a thicker area along the string line), then graduate from center to edge evenly. If the plate feels good, I'm done. If it feels too stiff I carve thinner, mostly in the center rather than the edge.

    That pretty much covers my method, pretty similar to most others with my own variations in procedures.

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  25. #21
    Butch
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    Default Re: Plate carving

    After roughing in my scroll I returned to fishing my graduation of the plate. As I was finger planing I uncovered a sap pocket a little over an inch long and 1/32 wide maybe.... is this bad? Can I continue if its still there when the sanding is complete? Looks like it will be right in the finger extension line +or- a touch on the treble side.

  26. #22
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plate carving

    A pitch pocket is not a structural problem, but it can be a cosmetic problem if you want it to be. (As for structure, think of it this way; is it bigger than an f-hole?)
    If it turns out to be in a visible location, a spruce spline can be inlaid, and if the wood is well chosen for grain direction, and the fit is good, it can be invisible in the finished instrument (I've found a few in tops of high dollar instruments made by folks with names that inspire awe. I figure; if they can do it, I can do it, and if they can do it, you can do it.)

  27. #23
    Butch
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    Default Re: Plate carving

    Thanks John....once the fret extension block is set in place, it won't be visible.

  28. #24
    Registered User David Houchens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plate carving

    pianoman89, I'll try to get a picture of it up later. It does very well after I replaced the bushings with bearings. Wish I had a better way to catch the dust. I'm working on that.

  29. #25
    Registered User David Houchens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plate carving

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Made on 1/4" steel plate. It's real stable with very little vibration. This template was a little thin on the bass side. Had to build up with a little.

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