Overpriced mandolins ...

[Teak]

Christmas holiday and I made a trip to visit my brother in the Big City.

Brother took me down to a shop that specializes in guitars with a small selection of mandolins. There were several low priced Breedloves that reminded me of the $60 mandolin that I started playing mandolin with in 1976. Brother thought I should check out the two mandolins made by a local, famous luthier. One was priced at $8,000 and the other at $22,000.

I was reluctant at first, since I don't believe in getting MAS for something I cannot justify buying. But brother was persistent so I gave in and tried both.

Verdict? Totally UNDERwhelmed. Neither mandolin (both F shaped) projected as well as the 1979 Givens A that I bought in 1979 and have used ever since. In fact, the Givens would smack down both of those Fs in a bluegrass stomp.

I moved over and tried the only Collings in the shop, a MF that was listed for around $2,800. The Collings was definitely better than either of the overpriced Fs, but was still inferior to my Givens. I liked the radiused fretboard, but that was the only advantage the Collings would have over the Givens. In every other aspect (tone, projection, beauty, etc.), the Givens wins hands down.

What I have come to appreciate is that my 1979 mandolin is probably worth more than what I had assumed, although the irrational love that people have for those Butt Ugly Protuberances (F scrolls) would mean fewer buyers in the market for it. Never mind, it will never leave my hands.

The bigger question is: What gives with the overpricing of mandolins that are inferior in sound, but loaded with bling?

[Steve Ostrander]

I declare you cured of MAS! You are a lucky man.

[SincereCorgi]

To be fair, some of those Givens mandolins are absolutely badass so you may have a skewed outlook.

[Teak]

To be fair, some of those Givens mandolins are absolutely badass so you may have a skewed outlook.

So if the Givens' sound is >>> $22k overpriced mandolin's sound, does that mean the value of the Givens >>> $22k? I don't think so. I think some luthiers have an unrealistic idea of the prices that the market can bear. Or else they believe in The Greater Fool theory, which states there will be at least one person out there who is foolish enough to overpay for a mediocre-sounding (but blinged up) instrument.

Incidentally, my brother talked with the owner of the guitar shop, who is quite well known and a long time in the business, and he said that many of the 60-year-olds to whom he has been selling guitars over the years are starting to unload their guitar portfolios. Thus, you can expect prices to either stagnate, or start to come down.

[jclover]

Not sure what your Givens is worth, but the Parlor in Knoxville wants $4K for a 1979 Givens A with lots of play wear. No, that is not $22K, not even $8K, but not exactly cheap either. You do pay more for bling, inflation sucks, and some folks appreciate different tones...I don't find that particularly surprising though. Bet your Givens is awesome, so it sounds to me like all is good!

[Kowboy]

I hear ya Teak and I also have a grasp on economics and how it applies to supply and demand. Many fine luthiers today are not even taking new orders as they are backed up. They also tend to use the best woods and components and usually build completely by hand. I kind of see what they turn out as art. I respect your opinion as well as others who will disagree with you.

[MikeEdgerton]

On the other side of the coin I've played a half dozen Givens in my life and wouldn't have purchased any of them. Setup and personal preference is a real big part of any instrument.

[Jim Garber]

This has been discussed multiple times in multiple threads. The same discussion is extended to "overpriced" picks as well as other accessories.And it always comes down to the same thing: some folks are willing to pay the high price for some luthiers work and some are not. I have played some excellent $22,000 instruments that I loved and others that I do not -- and some were even made by the same person or shop.

I am sure that your Givens is a wonderful instrument and there are many of us who would be jealous of your good fortune in finding it so many years ago. I certainly am not one who is drawn only to scrolled mandolins -- I generally am attracted by tone and playability. But I can see the attraction for the higher quality models. I also would not say that there is only one person "who is foolish enough to overpay for a mediocre-sounding (but blinged up) instrument" but that there are many who are willing to do so. And I would also wager that it is not only the bling that attracts them but the tone and workmanship. To each his or her own.

[Stephen Perry]

In the violin world, there are many players who really like instruments with a beautiful and consistent tone, good and easy playability, and excellent projection. They'll pay a good deal for those. Then there are players who chose touchy, demanding, fickle instruments that are intense and very very expensive. There's a reason that good old Cremonese instruments demand more cash. There's also a reason that eventually top players tend to choose the del Gesu instruments over the Stradivari instruments.

Now take a nice good Stradivari and give it to a step up player and they're likely to hand it back. Has been done.

I'm not saying that's the situation here, but different players are looking for different things.

On the other hand, a relatively poor Stradivari gets a better good price boost from the reputation, whether or not anyone can really make it light up.

[FLATROCK HILL]

I stopped into the local wine store to make a Christmas purchase a few days ago.
Lots of bottles on the shelves there at astronomical prices. I'd never pay that kind of money for a bottle of wine. Those bottles are there because some people have different preferences than my own.
I'm perfectly happy with a <$10 dollar bottle of Australian Cabernet.
I dont' lose any sleep over it.

[BradKlein]

To the original poster: You may as well name names if you're trying to be a real flame thrower. Start with your OWN name, and then move on to the City, the store and the luthiers who are making all that overpriced junk out there.

[rubydubyr]

I played a washburn and a loar at our local guitar center store yesterday, I didn't think either of them sounded as nice as my gretsch, and my daughter agreed. And both were 3-400 more than I paid for my mandolin.

[Ron McMillan]

People who can afford a 200 mph Ferrari don't need a Ferrari, but only a fool would say that a Honda at a tenth of the price is a better performing car. Likewise, I'm pretty certain that most of the people here who blow $10k on an Ellis three months after taking up the mandolin will never need the Ellis, but they want it, they can afford it - and it is a beautiful thing to have (and a much better thing to be spending money on than a darn Ferrari).

[rubydubyr]

To the original poster: You may as well name names if you're trying to be a real flame thrower. Start with your OWN name, and then move on to the City, the store and the luthiers who are making all that overpriced junk out there.

.... wow.......

[Don Grieser]

Do tell. Including your own name.

[sachmo63]

Brad, I don't think that's very nice. The OP was mearly pointing out what has been discussed here at length; that some mandolins are very much over priced and whether you agree with the OP or not does not give you permission to boss people around and call them names I.e. (Flame Thrower).

[rubydubyr]

Personally, for what it's worth..... I didn't take the OP's post as flame throwing...... just a question of wonderment that a mandolin he/she didn't think sounded as nice as hers/his actually had a 22,000 dollar price tag. just my 2 cents worth..... and might not be worth evne 2 cents.....

[Eddie Sheehy]

A Collings MF at $2,800 is a good deal. A Givens is a great mando. There are no overpriced mandolins, but there are buyers with too much money... Not that I've met any of them.

[FLATROCK HILL]

Brad, I don't think that's very nice. The OP was mearly pointing out what has been discussed here at length; that some mandolins are very much over priced and whether you agree with the OP or not does not give you permission to boss people around and call them names I.e. (Flame Thrower).

Really? I smell Napalm in the phrase below.

... those Butt Ugly Protuberances (F scrolls)...

[Pete Jenner]

'Overpriced' is definitely in the eye, ear and wallet of the beholder. Vive la différence!

[allenhopkins]

1. "How mandolins sound" is a subjective judgment. Someone else might walk into the same store, listen to the two Whozis mandolins and your Givens, and find nuances and subtleties in their voices that make them more attractive. Not saying that would happen, but, honestly, the world and the Cafe´are replete with people saying "I just tried out an X instrument/bicycle/surfboard/craft beer, and it doesn't stack up to my Y ditto/ditto/ditto/ditto that cost one-eighth as much. What's the matter with the deluded fools who think they can get eight times more money for their dreck, or the equally deluded fools who'll pay those inflated prices?"

2. The market, often, doesn't care about "intrinsic value," assuming such could be measured. It's about supply and demand, and with "goods" as specialized and low-volume as upscale mandolins, it can get damned quirky. What does "Loar era" mean in regard to a Gibson A-1 mandolin, which Lloyd Loar never saw during its manufacture? Is it really worth multiples of what a pre- or post-Loar A-1 would be worth? And is a Gibson really worth multiples of what a contemporary Regal, Martin, Lyon & Healy would be worth? And how many multiples?

3. You may have the gem of all Givenses -- or not. Definitely you've played it for 35 years, probably whipped it like a rented mule at times. The two Whozises are, presumably, largely unplayed. What will they sound like after 35 years, once some "deluded fool" buys 'em and whips 'em like said mule? What woods are they made of, how are they carved and finished? I have a one-of custom five-course, fan-fret instrument made for me last year by a good local luthier; it's by far the most expensive instrument I've ever purchased. Is it my best sounding mandolin? No -- not yet -- and it may never be. It is what it is, built solely to my specs, and I value it for what it is and what it represents -- the work of a talented craftsperson. unique and personal.

4. Building mandolins is not the shortest path to billionaire-hood. This may surprise you. Especially if your name isn't "Gibson" or even "Givens." When you spend several months carving, gluing, inlaying, finishing, testing, and consigning an instrument, it wouldn't be impertinent to expect to realize a decent return on all your investment in materials and hand-work. If your "product" doesn't compare to what else is available, if it truly is overpriced and no one buys it, the market will tell you that your business plan needs serious tweaking. In the meantime, what you do is put the instruments out there, set an asking price, and see what happens.

I just finished reading a book called Hatching Twitter, about the trials of starting the social-network firm over the past ten years or so. My younger son Pete's a Twitter software engineer, and he annotated the book based on his personal experience. The gist of the story is that a bunch of talented, difficult, disorganized, half-nuts geeks blundered into an amazing idea, spent years in mismanagement, self-destructive infighting, coups and counter-coups, and ended up with a lot of money, and a profitable world-wide company largely run by other people who know how to run things. Maybe Mr. Whozis the mandolin luthier will end up founding the next Weber, Collings, or even Gibson. Maybe he'll end up as a bicycle messenger or an insurance agent.

Glad you like your Givens, and glad you don't have to buy one of the Whozises. Nice to be happy with what you got, and able to marvel at those who may buy worse mandolins at higher prices. But remember, a lot of it is basically opinion -- and, as we know, everyone has one. Like, you know, that unmentionable body part.

[bratsche]

Really? I smell Napalm in the phrase below.

"Butt Ugly Protuberances" smells like napalm? Whoa, are you serious? And here I was thinking that was another cute name for them to add to the collection. (Hint: Not everyone thinks scrolls are aesthetically pleasing.) And I think the OP's post was mostly about his happy satisfaction with the instrument he has, not about the others, and that he actually went out of his way to avoid throwing flames by NOT mentioning any names. And it seems like at least one other person is quite disappointed that he didn't.

bratsche

[Jeff Mando]

'Overpriced' is definitely in the eye, ear and wallet of the beholder. Vive la différence!

So true! As a young musician, many years ago, we were wined and dined by Warner Bros in LA and got to stay in one of those Hollywood mansions like you see on TV for a few days. It quickly became obvious to me that while I struggled to pay my $200 rent each month, some people could write a check for $20,000 and still have money left over to buy art, collect exotic cars, eat in fancy restaurants, and live in mansions! I believe the expression, "Life Sucks" summarizes these feelings of inequality. And, no, we didn't get signed. (or I may have been writing this from the perspective of "How the Rich also struggle!") LOL ...C'mon, I'm serious, they struggle, too, just in different ways, OK? to keep from

[Jeff Mando]

but there are buyers with too much money... Not that I've met any of them.

They don't seem to show up when I'm trying to sell something, either!

[Bernie Daniel]

To the original poster: You may as well name names if you're trying to be a real flame thrower. Start with your OWN name, and then move on to the City, the store and the luthiers who are making all that overpriced junk out there.

I'm glad you said that!!