Overpriced mandolins ...

**Bernie Daniel** · Dec-28-2014, 12:58am

Originally Posted by sachmo63

Brad, I don't think that's very nice. The OP was mearly pointing out what has been discussed here at length; that some mandolins are very much over priced and whether you agree with the OP or not does not give you permission to boss people around and call them names I.e. (Flame Thrower).

I Brad's comment is fair. (BTW you know his name -- but yours is sachmo6?)

Yes this topic HAS been discussed here in the past, about a million times, and I think calling the original post incendiary (a subjective evaluation) seems as reasonable as the original poster's negative, and equally SUBJECTIVE, comments about the 'inferior" and more expensive mandolins he (she?) tested.

It would not be at all surprising to find other mandolin pickers would find the $22K mandolin to be MUCH better than his/her (name?) Givens. Then what?

I don't put much stock in the OP evaluation anyway because it seems to me that the store mandolins were being compared to the memory of the Givens? Maybe the Givens would not have sounded so superior in an ACTUAL back to back comparison?

**pianoman89** · Dec-28-2014, 1:20am

Originally Posted by allenhopkins

1. "How mandolins sound" is a subjective judgment.

+1 on everything Allen says. But the above quote is most likely the key to the OP's apparent disgust of the mandolins. I personally know a man who prefers the mellow woody sound of an old flatback over the cleaner crisper sound of a carved mandolin. He would take a flatback over an early Gibson that would have most folks drooling. The man used to play bluegrass, but now his music tastes have changed and so have his opinions about what sounds good. What may sound foul to you may sound great to another... perhaps even $22000 great.

So the question is, if you didnt like the sound, what do you care if they are way off in price? I see violins on ebay every day that I wouldnt give $50 for and are listed and over a grand. But it doesnt bother me cause even if they were $50, I would buy them. You see what im saying here is you really only have a reason to complain about the price of something if you would actually like to buy that something.

Knowing how incredibly difficult it is to make a living on any type of skilled labor/art in this time in which we live, I have to go with the outlook of charge what you think you can get. The value of something, when it comes down to it, is how much someone is willing to dig out of their wallet. Sure, there are guides for values of things such as cars and antiques, but those guides are simply a reporting of how much the average person was willing to pay for whatever it is your valuating. I have experienced trying to make a living off of fine woodwork. Most people who were buying thought I was overcharging, and most people who knew what went into my product though I was undercharging. It turns out I never made over $10/hr, generally less, and would often work day and night to get my product out in a reasonable time.

**rubydubyr** · Dec-28-2014, 1:27am

OMG......... why don't we just tie the OP to a stake and have an old fashioned blood sacrifice for him daring to voice his opinion of some mandolins he tried, didn't care for, and then had the sheer audacity to voice his opinion they were overpriced.

**Bernie Daniel** · Dec-28-2014, 1:28am

Originally Posted by FLATROCK HILL

I stopped into the local wine store to make a Christmas purchase a few days ago.
Lots of bottles on the shelves there at astronomical prices. I'd never pay that kind of money for a bottle of wine. Those bottles are there because some people have different preferences than my own.
I'm perfectly happy with a <$10 dollar bottle of Australian Cabernet.
I dont' lose any sleep over it.

Yes it is all relative.

When in high school and before I should have been able to buy anything with alcohol in it we had our favorite wine (favorite = we could afford it) -- it was called "Thunderbird". Someone even memorialized it with a poem.

What's the word?
Thunderbird!
What's the price?
Forty twice!

We did not lose any sleep drinking our 80 cent a bottle wine either -- though I expect we might have lost some stomach lining. If it were still on the market it would probably be used to degrease transmission parts.

At least you stayed on topic with your post..............

**Bernie Daniel** · Dec-28-2014, 1:31am

Originally Posted by rubydubyr

OMG......... why don't we just tie the OP to a stake and have an old fashioned blood sacrifice for him daring to voice his opinion of some mandolins he tried, didn't care for, and then had the sheer audacity to voice his opinion they were overpriced.

Hyperbole perhaps?

I'm wondering how the maker of the $22K mandolin would feel about the OP. What comes around goes around eh?

**Petrus** · Dec-28-2014, 2:21am

Definitely a double standard at work. Few here would argue that an entry-level Rogue would be overpriced at $500. But then no maker is being dissed because it just comes from a big factory after all.

Best way to find out what something is "worth" is put it on auction, like a lot of high-end instruments. It sells to the highest bidder and by definition that's what it's worth. Would that $22K mando get $22K on auction? It might go higher or it might go lower, but you can't argue that it ended up at the wrong price.

**bratsche** · Dec-28-2014, 2:38am

Originally Posted by pianoman89

I personally know a man who prefers the mellow woody sound of an old flatback over the cleaner crisper sound of a carved mandolin. He would take a flatback over an early Gibson that would have most folks drooling.

O, the horror!

Sounds like a man after my own heart, and one with good taste! <3 And I'm a woman with such preferences, and think the added bonus that they're less expensive is just gravy. I hope the likes of us aren't considered too eccentric or freakish around here?

So now the question is why the OP posts to comment about high prices, or "overpriced" instruments? I can't climb into his/her head and answer that, but perhaps it's just one person's way of expressing joyfulness at the good fortune of having a (relatively) reasonably priced instrument that so well satisfies him or her?

I know certain people around here take extreme umbrage at any criticism (or even perceived slights) made toward any of their sacred cows, and for that reason I kind of try to keep my own gloating to a minimum. But for my part, it's a fact that I wouldn't trade a single one of my flatbacks for a carved one, even one costing more than I earn annually (especially an f-hole model), if I actually had to keep and play it. Of course, if I could flip it and get something else that I actually wanted or needed, that would be another story. ;-)

bratsche
(And I happily tell anyone my real name who sends me a PM - I just have this thing about wanting it to remain unsearchable on the interwebz.)

**pianoman89** · Dec-28-2014, 2:50am

Originally Posted by bratsche

I hope the likes of us aren't considered too eccentric or freakish around here?[/SIZE]

I should hope not. Its hard to beat the sound of a Brazilian Rosewood flatback, especially when your playing in a small group and don't need to cut through to be heard.

I surly was not intending to slight the flatback, just pointing out that, as previously stated, sound is such a subjective quality.

**Ivan Kelsall** · Dec-28-2014, 4:20am

Amongst mandolins in almost all price ranges for 'decent' instruments,there will be variations in tonal quality. Some will be ok,some will be good & others that will sound very good indeed 'within their price range'. One thing that i've found with my own instruments,is that on a daily basis,especially as temperatures range up & down,their tonal & volume aspects change. When mine are cold,they go sharp - literally, & sound thin & tinny. However,when they get warm,the sound opens up & they usually sound superb. Deep,woody bass (especially on my Lebeda) but even the trebles sound more full bodied. You could simply have caught the high priced instruments that you played on a bad day - it does happen. Maybe if you'd had your Givens with you at the time,a more fair comparison might have been made.
Ron Mc's analogy re.cars - Any car will get you from A to B,but who would suggest that a high cost / performance car wouldn't be a more enjoyable driving / riding experience - probably not many. In exactly the same way,even a relative newcomer to the mandolin world would enjoy playing a high cost ''excellent sounding / playing'' mandolin rather than a $50 'beater'.
If your Givens sounds as good as you say,then you're very fortunate. You've already got what many of us are constantly searching to find. I found my own 'ideal' in my recently purchased Ellis "A" style,but that doesn't mean that my Weber "Fern" & my Lebeda "Special" are inferior - no way !. They're simply different sounding mandolins, & i enjoy all of themfor exactly that reason. I take any one of them 'out to play' as my choice dictates & i'm never disappointed,
Ivan

**Astro** · Dec-28-2014, 5:13am

Pricing is something that is sometimes hard for many of us to understand with mandolins as with many other things. The observation that, "this is a topic that has been discussed many times here" speaks to that difficulty. It will come up again. And there will be arguments both ways as with everything that is difficult to understand.

Fortunately, pricing is something we only have to justify to ourselves. We look to others for confirmation because that is human nature. In the beginning there is a very poor understanding. But I think after just a few years of play, its not so hard to determine what something is worth to us. But its still human nature to try to get our pals to agree with our valuation.

So we can say whether we agree or not for us (but not for anyone else). But there is no need to get testy.

I assume the reason the op didnt announce the builder or the shop is that he didnt want to hurt anyone's feelings. And I assume some dont use their real name because there is no telling who gets enraged by what on a public forum; and who knows the mental stability of strangers and why expose their family to something like that on a forum that is just suppose to be for fun. Only a small fraction of those reading the forum ever become members, and only a fraction of the members ever post.

I have made friends on this forum who know who I am. And I don't mind the owner of the forum knowing who I am. But I don't want the world knowing who I am. Not because I am ashamed of anything I say. But because there are lots of kinds of people in the world many of whom are unable to control themselves and I dont need that kind of hassle in my life.

So those of you who use your name, that is fine with me. Yes I do feel more connected by knowing it. On the other hand, just because others elect not to do so, does not in any way lesson the relevance of their post. And the "calling out" of such a thing as a bullying ploy certainly reinforces my decision.

--Astro

(hint: Not my real name)

**MikeEdgerton** · Dec-28-2014, 7:47am

Originally Posted by Petrus

Definitely a double standard at work. Few here would argue that an entry-level Rogue would be overpriced at $500...

I'm pretty sure I would. They sell for less than $50.00.

**Stephen Perry** · Dec-28-2014, 8:03am

Something to consider a whole bunch is that the top players I show things to pretty much never use the term "tone." They're looking at things other than tone.

**yankees1** · Dec-28-2014, 8:03am

It's all in the eyes, ears and wallet of the beholder !

**Astro** · Dec-28-2014, 8:07am

Originally Posted by Stephen Perry

Something to consider a whole bunch is that the top players I show things to pretty much never use the term "tone." They're looking at things other than tone.

Interesting Stephen. What things do the top players say they are looking for ?

**rubydubyr** · Dec-28-2014, 8:19am

Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel

Hyperbole perhaps?

I'm wondering how the maker of the $22K mandolin would feel about the OP. What comes around goes around eh?

Do you have a personal stake in this? Is that why you are so quick to heat the tar and gather the feathers?????

**Bernie Daniel** · Dec-28-2014, 8:19am

Originally Posted by pianoman89

... personally know a man who prefers the mellow woody sound of an old flatback over the cleaner crisper sound of a carved mandolin. He would take a flatback over an early Gibson that would have most folks drooling. The man used to play bluegrass, but now his music tastes have changed and so have his opinions about what sounds good. What may sound foul to you may sound great to another... perhaps even $22000 great.....

Originally Posted by bratsche

O, the horror!

Sounds like a man after my own heart, and one with good taste! <3 And I'm a woman with such preferences, and think the added bonus that they're less expensive is just gravy. I hope the likes of us aren't considered too eccentric or freakish around here? .....I know certain people around here take extreme umbrage at any criticism (or even perceived slights) made toward any of their sacred cows, and for that reason I kind of try to keep my own gloating to a minimum. But for my part, it's a fact that I wouldn't trade a single one of my flatbacks for a carved one, even one costing more than I earn annually (especially an f-hole model), if I actually had to keep and play it. Of course, if I could flip it and get something else that I actually wanted or needed, that would be another story.... ;-)

Well I certainly agree that the sound of a flat back or gourd back mandolin is perfect for classical and Neapolitan etc. music. And who would argue with that after seeing and/or hearing Caterina Lichtenberg play a piece?

They might even sound OK for doing Rawhide (levity here) -- I really don't know!

However, the other point you make about -- that all of us F-style enthusiasts are "thin skinned" about our scroll envy is a red herring.

Do you EVER hear the F-style devotees putting down a flat back, a tater bug or an A-style mandolin or chiding the folks who choose to own one? Doubt it. Could have happened but not enough for me to recall an occasion.

It seems to me that the only people who stir up this hornet's nest are those mandolinists who DON"T own a scroll? So perhaps the old saw wears thin or dull after the 1000th time?

For someone like the OP who does not like the looks of an F-style mandolin and/or thinks they cost too much -- here is a very simple solution: DON"T BUY ONE!!!

I do like his/her tag line though!

**Randy Linam** · Dec-28-2014, 8:20am

The "worth" of an item is what someone/the public is willing to pay for it. The "value" of an item is when quality/performance exceeds the item's "worth."

**rubydubyr** · Dec-28-2014, 8:21am

Great point, Petrus

**rubydubyr** · Dec-28-2014, 8:27am