Help with rhythm for 6/8 time (specifically Silent Night)

[lex]

I'm a relative beginner who has been spending most of my time practicing alone in the warm glow of a computer screen. However, this year I'm planning to bring my mando along with me to the family Christmas gathering. I'm nervous about accompany the very talented guitar and piano players in my family while they play Carols. To keep familial harmony (both literally and figuratively) this holiday season, I've been practicing a half dozen or so Christmas tunes in the key of G and A. I've learned the melodies and now I'm focusing on figuring out chords/rhythm.

I'm having trouble with Silent Night (in the key of G) because it's in 6/8 time. So far, I've been practicing a D-du-du D-du-du strum using open G,D, and C chords but I don't really like how it sounds. Too jangly or something. I'm thinking about trying a waltz type strum (hold-D-D, hold-D-D) but I'm not sure. I don't want get in the way of the guitar strumming so, I was wondering if there are any rhythm patterns using chop chords that would be better? I apologize if this is a simple question that has been answered elsewhere on the forum. I did a few searches but wasn't able to find an answer. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Lex
P.S. I'm playing a oval hole Eastman (MD504).

[UsuallyPickin]

Don't over think getting in the way of the guitar rhythm. Waltz time can be played by letting the first beat ring and the second and third beats damped with your left hand like a chop. Or you could pick single strings of the chord , on the beat, letting all three tones ring. Mixing it up between the two will give a nice feel. R/

[John Kelly]

Another possibility is arpeggios - pick the chords as single notes in a 1-and-a 2-and-a rhythm, six notes per bar. This would let the guitar play chords and your contribution would fill in quite nicely. You can pick the successive notes in one direction, as A-E-a for the A chord, repeated for each chord, or three upstrokes then three downstrokes, so A-E-a (downstrokes) then e-A-E (upstrokes). The world is your oyster!
Have a great Christmas gig!

[DavidKOS]

I always play Silent Night with a fingerpicked backing, not strummed.

[EdHanrahan]

I suspect that if you didn't know it was in 6/8 time, you'd just feel the rhythm and come up with something reasonable, like most of us do. And there's certainly nothing wrong with changing your approach as each song moves along; you'll probably find that the others do, as well. Hey, it's the ebb & flow, in most forms of music, that breaths "life" into a tune. Enjoy & explore!

From a different viewpoint:
After my college rock band (many decades ago!) had been playing for quite some time, we came across the sheet music to the Stones' "Time Is On My Side". We sort of looked at each other and said, "What the **** is 12/8 time?" Goes to show that ya don't have to think it to feel it!

[chuck3]

You can play it equally well as having a slow 4/4 feel, and then you won't have to overthink or overplay it.

1//2//3//4//| (strum on the 1, the 2, the 3 and the 4 only and let it ring)

in place of

123456|123456| (and worrying about 6/8).

Hope that makes sense.

[DavidKOS]

You can play it equally well as having a slow 4/4 feel, and then you won't have to overthink or overplay it.

1//2//3//4//| (strum on the 1, the 2, the 3 and the 4 only and let it ring)

in place of

123456|123456| (and worrying about 6/8).

Hope that makes sense.

Actually that's a nice way of explaining 12/8 time! or 6/8 time for that matter (2x).

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

[mandocrucian]

It's really 3/4. (one bar of 6/8 should really be notated as two measure of 3/4)

[jshane]

I guess I might suggest forgetting completely about the time signature.

Silent Night (and an awful lot of other "3s" 3/4, 6/8, 12/8 etc) are so ingrained into most of us, that if we just sing it in our heads, a reasonable, correct, and pleasing rhythm is probably going to emerge.

In sort of the same fashion, I have been really enjoying some "crooked" music recently, and it is absolutely amazing at how well our brains can reproduce fairly bizarre rhythm-counts by "feel", but completely screw it up if we actually engage the "intellect".

I basically just plain screw it up if I give it any actual "thought"... (truthfully, I screw it up plenty even without engaging thought, but if I "think", it's a goner for sure.)

[sblock]

For Silent Night (or for any slow 6/8 tune), it might help to think of the timing as:
"ONE-2-3, TWO-2-3", "ONE-2-3, TWO-2,3", and so on.
Try strumming with a downstroke on every count in this sequence, and really emphasize the ones I've shown in boldface, and strum softly on the others. Simple!

And yes, Silent Night is in 6/8 time, and not 3/4 (although it's a tough call.) Click on this link to see the original hand-written manuscript: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_...ille_nacht.jpg

[JeffD]

Wait hang on.

Silent Night is a waltz. A waltz is not a slow 6/8. It is 3/4. ????

This is weird. I have never heard Silent Night played as a jig.

One two three, two two three is a waltz.

A 6/8 jig would be something like: blueberry blueberry.

[Beanzy]

Personally I'd set the metronome to 40 and count it in two.

[DavidKOS]

It's really 3/4. (one bar of 6/8 should really be notated as two measure of 3/4)

Or the 6/8 is another way of writing 2 measures of 3/4.

I'd have used 3/4.

[sblock]

Wait hang on.

Silent Night is a waltz. A waltz is not a slow 6/8. It is 3/4. ????

This is weird. I have never heard Silent Night played as a jig.

One two three, two two three is a waltz.

A 6/8 jig would be something like: blueberry blueberry.

Well yes, a FAST (Irish style) 6/8 jig would be counted "blueberry blueberry." But a SLOW 6/8 tune (and it's NOT not a jig! Not all 6/8 time is a jig.) is better counted more like "ONE-2-3; TWO-2,3". (A waltz, on the other hand, is counted ONE-two-three, ONE-two three.) I guess that you didn't follow the link I gave in my post above, did you? Check it out! Franz X. Gruber, the German composer who famously wrote "Silent Night" for the guitar (around 1818) at the last minute, after some rats ate through the air bellows on his church organ organ, originally wrote this tune in 6/8 time! Please follow that link to see his original manuscript, and check it out. It clearly says 6/8 on it, and he oughta know, because he wrote it! Of course, you can count it out as a waltz instead if you prefer -- and also slow it down. There is almost no difference between a slow 6/8 and 3/4. Some purists may differ.

Actually, most of the folks who play this song today slow it all the way down to a LULLABY speed, in which case it really IS best written as 3/4, and not as 6/8. So everyone wins!

[DavidKOS]

Franz X. Gruber, the German composer who famously wrote "Silent Night" for the guitar (around 1818) at the last minute, after some rats ate through the air bellows on his church organ organ, originally wrote this tune in 6/8 time! Please follow that link to see his original manuscript, and check it out. It clearly says 6/8 on it, and he oughta know, because he wrote it! Of course, you can count it out as a waltz instead if you prefer -- and also slow it down. There is almost no difference between a slow 6/8 and 3/4. Some purists may differ.

Actually, most of the folks who play this song today slow it all the way down to a LULLABY speed, in which case it really IS best written as 3/4, and not as 6/8. So everyone wins!

You nailed it. This is the definitive answer.

If you look at the manuscript, the tune is in 6/8, key of D major, and the accompaniment alternates between an "oom-pahpah" pattern in the first half measure and a 16th note pattern in the second half measure, which is used almost throughout the piece in varied forms.

So, there is the composer's accompaniment, neither a waltz, nor a jig, nor fully fingerpicked arpeggio style, but a unique mix. The only question is how fast Gruber played it.

[SincereCorgi]

Franz X. Gruber, the German composer who famously wrote "Silent Night" for the guitar (around 1818) at the last minute, after some rats ate through the air bellows on his church organ organ, originally wrote this tune in 6/8 time! Please follow that link to see his original manuscript, and check it out...

Going to the manuscript is all well and good, but I think "Silent Night" has been knocking around so long that all the corners have been worn off- you can do a reggae version in 4/4 at this point and nobody would bat an eye.

[lex]

Wow! Thanks for all the great responses. I really appreciate the detailed discussion of the timing and especially the strumming/counting suggestions provided by sblock. Strumming DOWN-down-down, DOWN-down-down (ONE-two-three, TWO-two-three) sounds much better than the DOWN-down/up-down/up, DOWN-down/up-down/up (ONE-two/and-three/and-FOUR-five/and-six/and) pattern I was attempting. Also, John Kelly's suggestion to use arpeggios was a real eye opener to me. I've been practicing pentatonic scales and arpeggios as warm-up exercises but they've always been sort of abstract to me. I recognized the link between the fingerings for arpeggios and the fiddle tunes I've been learning but realizing I can use them to safely "improvise" behind the chord changes was an epiphany. I know this is the most basic part of making music which I understood intellectually but didn't really get musically. I feel really stupid admitting this but I also didn't know simply playing each string of a two-finger chord individually in succession would work well, too.

I'm coming to the realization that they way I've been learning to play has been like learning French by studying language books. I might understand how to write a paragraph in French but I would learn how to speak better (and have more fun) if I went to cafe in Paris and tried to order a coffee. In other words, there is a big difference between learning songs on your own and figuring out the simple things that sound nice by playing with others.

Anyways, thanks again for all the input. It's helped me immensely. Now, I'm off to make sure the rats haven't decided to change their diet from organ bellows to mandolin bridges.

[JeffD]

But a SLOW 6/8 tune (and it's NOT not a jig! Not all 6/8 time is a jig.) is better counted more like "ONE-2-3; TWO-2,3". (A waltz, on the other hand, is counted ONE-two-three, ONE-two three.)

Yea that is correct, in the waltz every group of three is equal, whereas in the 6/8, fast jig or slow tune, the second group of three beats is ever so slightly or sometimes strongly subordinate to the first. That is better indicated as counting one at the beginning of each group of three.

I guess that you didn't follow the link I gave in my post above, did you? Check it out! !

No I did. It came as a surprise but it didn't negate my thinking. My reaction was - however it may have been conceived, written, and notated 196 some odd years ago, I have never, ever, heard it played other than a waltz, except in parody or deliberate alteration. And the most beautiful playing of it, to my ears, is to keep it very very even and without emphasis, to let the tune do its magic.

That said I have never gone about specifically studying that tune or listening for variations, so there might well be an interesting history there waiting for me.

[Paul Kotapish]

One way to give a little lift to many tunes in waltz time is to give a little extra pulse on the third beat of the measure (ONE two THREE ONE two THREE).

A lot of waltzes and polskas and other 3/4 tunes really lean on that third beat to propel the downbeat, and players in traditions where that rhythm is common will often tap their feet on the first and third beats.

In my little brain, I tend to think of them as starting on the pickup three and don't even count the two: and One - and One - and One. That adds some lift and keeps the tune from sounding too leaden or corny.

You generally want to avoid that Oom-pah-pah vibe unless you are playing in a biergarten during Octoberfest.

You can apply the old DuD,Dud approach that a lot of players use for playing jigs in 6/8 to waltzes--at any tempo.