The O'Connor - Suzuki Discussion

[BradKlein]

Personally, I think that the eponym of the Peter Wernick Method should weigh in - preferably in disguise as Dr. Banjo and really get this tempest boiling in its teapot!

[stewartd]

Goodness, I was completely unaware of this M.O. brew ha ha before reading this thread. Had no idea. Now, after reading this and some of the referenced links, I think I'll just listen to his records that I've listened to all these years and continue to enjoy his playing. The other stuff? I couldn't care less. ymmv

Mark made such a fuss in Facebook fiddle groups that he was eventually removed from the biggest ones. He lost a lot of fans in the fiddle world: http://inthetradition.blogspot.com/2...e-bruised.html

[multidon]

"Being raised by a single mother with limited financial means weighed heavy on O'Connor, causing a medically documented enlarged Ego."

This is a direct quote from Mark O'Connor's Wikipedia article. It amazes me it had survived the usual vetting.

[jim simpson]

"Being raised by a single mother with limited financial means weighed heavy on O'Connor, causing a medically documented enlarged Ego."

This is a direct quote from Mark O'Connor's Wikipedia article. It amazes me it had survived the usual vetting.

multidon, this made it worth plowing through this thread! I wonder if there could be a medical intervention for the documented enlarged Ego? lol!!

[multidon]

"Being raised by a single mother WITHOUT financial means weighed heavy on O'Connor, causing a medically documented enlarged Ego"

This is the actual quote. Sorry for the slight misquote above. After all I wouldn't want to misquote a fount of accurate information like Wikipedia!

[Sheryl McDonald]

According to this article: http://articles.latimes.com/1997/jul...nment/ca-13741, Mr. O'Connor was 'steeped' in Classical music when he was young, and it was the only music his mom allowed to be played in the house. I'd be curious to hear what she has to say about this topic.

[Bertram Henze]

'steeped' in Classical music

It may be allowed to question Mr O'Connor's competence for folk music, then.
Classical musicians typically have a rather condescending/academic attitude ("that's for simple people") towards folk music (as had the composers who built vestiges of the odd dance or tune into operas and symphonies), but never really get an authentic feel for it. I don't know if that applies for Mr O'Connor, but if so, it would affect the allegedly prominent role folk music plays in his teaching method and increase his mental distance from those taught by his method. He would not exactly be like Gandhi.

Plus, I dearly hope for him that his ego is based on more than just programming from his mom.

[DavidKOS]

Classical musicians typically have a rather condescending/academic attitude ("that's for simple people") towards folk music (as had the composers who built vestiges of the odd dance or tune into operas and symphonies), but never really get an authentic feel for it.

Hmmm.....Haydn sure understood and had a feel for Gypsy folk tunes.......Ralph Vaughn Williams seemed to understand English folk music.....Bela Bartok may have been one of the first true ethnomusicologists, and he definitely had a feel for Hungarian folk idioms.



http://folklife.hu/roots-to-revival/...usic-research/

[Jeff Hildreth]

"I've lost any interest to listen to O'c play. He is a musical force but the ego comes through in the playing so bad it makes it uninteresting."


Interesting.

I first saw and heard MC many years ago. Did not care for his playing or his stage presence. Off-putting. I have not paid attention for years until this "event". My wife is a very fine violin player, first chair at a prestigious university in past history. She does not care for MC's playing and thinks his persona is "affected".

My grandson is a Suzuki trained viola player, and quite good. I asked him if he had any familiarity with MC. No.

My thoughts here are quite simple after reading quite a bit about this "contest" between MC and Suzuki. Shameful, self serving, grandstanding and a deterrent to have any involvement with MC at any level. Ergo, won't buy anything he offers and will not listen to or attend any MC events. And this has nothing to do with my prior opinions. Were I currently exposed to him for the first time, I would feel the same. And this has zip all to do with the quality or effectiveness of the teaching materials.

[OldSausage]

Hmmm.....Haydn sure understood and had a feel for Gypsy folk tunes.......Ralph Vaughn Williams seemed to understand English folk music.....Bela Bartok may have been one of the first true ethnomusicologists, and he definitely had a feel for Hungarian folk idioms.

http://folklife.hu/roots-to-revival/...usic-research/

Well, I'd like to read an interview with some authentic hillbilly Gypsies to see if they thought Haydn really had a feel for their music, or if they thought it weren't no part of nothin'.

[DavidKOS]

Well, I'd like to read an interview with some authentic hillbilly Gypsies to see if they thought Haydn really had a feel for their music, or if they thought it weren't no part of nothin'.

That would settle the debate, eh?

From what I understand Haydn actually spent time listening to the Gypsies very seriously, but we do not have the Romany perspective, as you say.

[Peewee]

"Being raised by a single mother with limited financial means weighed heavy on O'Connor, causing a medically documented enlarged Ego."

This is a direct quote from Mark O'Connor's Wikipedia article. It amazes me it had survived the usual vetting.

I know it's a joke, but there's probably some truth to it. I don't think it's ego though. Mark had a terrible childhood. He was a shy, awkward kid, his dad was an alcoholic, his mom was sick for a long time and died of cancer when he was 20 years old, and they were dirt poor. He also faced a lot of resentment from older musicians because he was winning every fiddle contest in the country as a teenager. I think he's quite sensitive to criticism (real or imagined) and reacts aggressively to it. He's probably not doing himself any favors.

It may be allowed to question Mr O'Connor's competence for folk music, then...

Mark started on classical guitar as a child, but it would be silly to question his credentials as a folk musician. He's probably the most successful contest fiddler ever (and won a bunch of contests on guitar and mandolin). He studied with Benny Thomasson when he was young and has played with pretty much everybody (Chet Atkins, David Grisman, Doc Watson, Tony Rice, Stephane Grappelli, etc.)

[MikeEdgerton]

Has anyone offered Mark a Snickers? There might be a simple answer to this whole thing. Then again, he might have some valid points but as I don't play the fiddle I'm not too influenced by the discussion either way. I did ride a 50cc Suzuki years ago.

[greenwdse]

Has anyone offered Mark a Snickers?

I dunno, but "Offered Mark A Snickers" sounds like a great bluegrass song to me.

[multidon]

I do want to make it clear that in my previous post, if Mark O'Connor did in fact have a rough childhood, then I was unaware of it and not making fun of that. I would never do that to anyone.

What I did find hilariously funny it that someone managed to slip in the "medically documented enlarged Ego" comment into a Wikipedia article, and nobody has edited it out yet. Just goes to show Wikipedia articles should always be taken with a grain of salt. It's not Encyclopedia Brittanica, not by a long shot.

[JonZ]

I just remembered another odd thing from one of the MOC camps. One of his evening seminars/infomercials consisted of him reading his son's Harvard PhD thesis, the premise of which was the afore discussed false dichotomy between American and European music. I was really put of by it at the time.

[Bertram Henze]

That would settle the debate, eh?

Nothing can ever settle a debate about authenticity (Seamus Tansey once flogged bands like Bothy Band, De Danann, Planxty for stealing authentic Irish music and making it pop, figure that). What I said about attitude comes from my own experience with classical musicians who regarded folk singing and playing as flubby and imprecise, and from composers like Wagner whose outbreaks of folksiness (sailors' choir in Flying Dutchman etc) are remote and unreal at best. That's ok, it's different worlds, that's all.
But a guide should guide others along paths he really walked himself - that much authenticity is indispensible.

Mark started on classical guitar as a child, but it would be silly to question his credentials as a folk musician. He's probably the most successful contest fiddler ever (and won a bunch of contests on guitar and mandolin). He studied with Benny Thomasson when he was young and has played with pretty much everybody (Chet Atkins, David Grisman, Doc Watson, Tony Rice, Stephane Grappelli, etc.)

This seems to collide with the story of nothing else but classical music being allowed in the house by his mother.

But I happen to see at this point that we are in the middle of talking about the person, not the methods, which is exactly what we wanted to avoid. I will therefore stop my exploration. Maybe it's all just the beam in my own eye.

[allenhopkins]

I just remembered another odd thing from one of the MOC camps. One of his evening seminars/infomercials consisted of him reading his son's Harvard PhD thesis, the premise of which was the afore discussed false dichotomy between American and European music. I was really put of by it at the time.

I believe it was his son Forrest's undergraduate honors thesis, which was discussed in this thread?

[JonZ]

I believe it was his son Forrest's undergraduate honors thesis, which was discussed in this thread?

Probably.

[John Ritchhart]

I agree with bratsche in that it is much ado about so what in the end. Whether or not Suzuki misrepresented his affiliations has little to do in my mind with the effectiveness of his method. It either works or it doesn't. I believe there is enough history and examples of highly finished violinists to suggest that it does. I'm sure Mark's works too. It's all good. I have been through Pete's method many years and know it for what it is. One year we had a concert violinist taking the jam camp with us. After watching us a pass a new tune around the jam a few times, his question was, "how do you know what to play?" So I have the ability to come up with a passable break on a tune I never heard before but can't sight read a tune from sheet music that I've never heard. He was just the opposite. I'm happy and so is he.

[Perry]

Dr. Ralph Stanley's next. Lacks a Ph.D., and uses auto-tune for that high lonesome sound!

You mean auto de-tune and I mean that with the highest regard to Dr. Stanley

[grassrootphilosopher]

@ Brad Klein: I don´t believe I had to look up your fancy word (eponym). Your post puts things into perspective. Well done.

Has anyone offered Mark a Snickers? There might be a simple answer to this whole thing. Then again, he might have some valid points but as I don't play the fiddle I'm not too influenced by the discussion either way. I did ride a 50cc Suzuki years ago.

I aprove.

I do want to make it clear that in my previous post, if Mark O'Connor did in fact have a rough childhood, then I was unaware of it and not making fun of that. I would never do that to anyone.

You´re polite. I aprove. If though for some reason someone - not talking about Marc O´Connor - would have medical problems concerning his/her ego one should probably refrain from pursuing a line of work where ego is constantly jeopardized, such as teaching.

Nothing can ever settle a debate about authenticity (Seamus Tansey once flogged bands like Bothy Band, De Danann, Planxty for stealing authentic Irish music and making it pop, figure that). What I said about attitude comes from my own experience with classical musicians who regarded folk singing and playing as flubby and imprecise, and from composers like Wagner whose outbreaks of folksiness (sailors' choir in Flying Dutchman etc) are remote and unreal at best. That's ok, it's different worlds, that's all.
But a guide should guide others along paths he really walked himself - that much authenticity is indispensible.



This seems to collide with the story of nothing else but classical music being allowed in the house by his mother.

But I happen to see at this point that we are in the middle of talking about the person, not the methods, which is exactly what we wanted to avoid. I will therefore stop my exploration. Maybe it's all just the beam in my own eye.

That is what I would think. I´m not happy with your posts. Check up on the Wikipedia entry. Marc O´Connor did have a TV in the house despite being not well off. There he saw "fiddling" which turned him on to this kind of music. So if indeed Wikipedia is acurate your post was well off the mark. You can be allowed to listen to just classical music on your family radio/stereo but watching TV is another thing. Once turned on to something this experience might be life-changing. I do not know your age but maybe you know of/about EUROPA-Langspielplatten. Some of these "audio dramas" had bluegrass on them as background music. Could you find it possible that a child could get turned on to bluegrass listening to such like?

Let´s face it: Nobody is bashing Marc O´Connor´s musical proficiency, his fiddling-powers, his musicianship. He is a great musician. This I have to admit even though I´m with Jeff Hildreth because Marc O´Connor´s music leaves me cold. Yet one cannot dispute his abilities. His tact, or marketing tactics (as Old Sausage puts it), his emotional touchyness etc. concerning a learning/teaching method is another story. I´m interested where this (and this thread) leads to.

Here´s to mild mannered musicianship (and I´m probably not regarded as mild; but tanpon)

[Peewee]

This seems to collide with the story of nothing else but classical music being allowed in the house by his mother.

But I happen to see at this point that we are in the middle of talking about the person, not the methods, which is exactly what we wanted to avoid. I will therefore stop my exploration. Maybe it's all just the beam in my own eye.

Here's the quote from the article:

"I started out learning to play the classical guitar because my mom was an avid fan of classical music. And she was very strict. Classical was all that was allowed to be played on the family stereo."

We're probably spending too much time analyzing 3 short sentences. But Mark is definitely a fiddler who crossed over into classical, not the other way around.

Turning back to the method, he is in a unique position to write an American violin method. From fiddle contests, to bluegrass/new acoustic (the David Grisman Quintet, Sam Bush, Bela Fleck, Tony Rice, Doc Watson) to jazz (Stephane Grappelli), to rock (the Dixie Dregs) to top session player in Nashville, to 'classical' composer and soloist. He really has done it all. His books fill a niche as an alternative/addition to traditional violin pedagogy (Suzuki or otherwise). It's a shame the current situation has become what it is. I don't think he's really winning people over to his method.

[Franc Homier Lieu]

I aprove.



You´re polite. I aprove.

I´m not happy with your posts.

I think the Cafe should replace the 'thanks' button with buttons for each of these.

[bigskygirl]

I agree with bratsche in that it is much ado about so what in the end. Whether or not Suzuki misrepresented his affiliations has little to do in my mind with the effectiveness of his method. It either works or it doesn't. I believe there is enough history and examples of highly finished violinists to suggest that it does. I'm sure Mark's works too. It's all good. I have been through Pete's method many years and know it for what it is. One year we had a concert violinist taking the jam camp with us. After watching us a pass a new tune around the jam a few times, his question was, "how do you know what to play?" So I have the ability to come up with a passable break on a tune I never heard before but can't sight read a tune from sheet music that I've never heard. He was just the opposite. I'm happy and so is he.

I've been following this thread for some reason and this post sums it up for me, so what. In my experience people that have to point out how superior they are, well....aren't and I generally ignore them.

I was at a camp standing next to a very accomplished classical mandolinist and he was not able to join in the jams BC that's not what he does, doesn't make him any less, I sure can't join in on any classical pieces he plays flawlessly but we are both pursuing our passions and having fun doing so.