musings re. bass at jams, electricity, and carved vs. flat tops

[nickster60]

That would be pretty cool you could also sit to play it. Imagine the look on the audiences face when see you sit down with a cello and then proceed to slap out a bass line.

[nickster60]

I have direct experience, however, of guitarists and bass guitarists, who brought small amps along to our jam and were subtle enough players and good enough listeners that it worked out well, and even helped.

A loud bass player isnt a good thing unless you are in a loud band.

I am doing a little coffee house project with my wife, she plays a Taylor nylon string and I am playing a Fender Jazz Bass. I am not playing much mostly roots and just adding support to the guitar. It is surprising how playing less can sound so much better.

[farmerjones]

It wouldn't be a bass thread without this: http://bassbox.org/

My experience with ABGs, even with only one D28, plus banjer, & fiddle. The ABG is toast. We used to have a great bassist with a great old Kay doghouse. He is so missed.
It is so much the glue that holds the groove together.
I too have heard only good things about u-basses.

[Frank Russell]

The "how you play electric bass" posts make a lot of good points. Our local bluegrass circle had a few different guys that played the electric bass on several songs, and some of them were able to blend in quite well. Then we had a peckerneck show up with his electric guitars and bass, and it ruined it for me and the other mandolin players. Nothing like playing every song with a honkytonk beat, especially a nice waltz. Everything we played when he was there sounded like a Johnny Paycheck song from the 80s. Between that, and the passing of a few of the older founding members, I quit going altogether, as the only time I could hear what I was playing was when that guy would go get some food, and my guitar player and I would have a quick mini-jam of as many songs as we could play before he got back. On the other hand, my buddy brought his pedal steel several times, and since he has good jam etiquette, it was an asset, and fit in well on most songs. All depends on how they play it. And yes, as someone who has owned and tried to play a guitaron, it's not easy, which is why many mariachis have the notes painted on their strings, or sometimes on the fretboard. It's unfretted, and very short scale, so the notes are super close together. Frank.

[derbex]

Passed http://homepage.ntlworld.com/tobias....ass_guitar.htm in browsing the other day - a guitar sized bass, best of both worlds?

Great Address 'Rear of 178 Windham Road' -probably not an international mega-corp then?

[John Adrihan]

I think electric bass is fine, as long the volume is in control. Just keep those harmonicas, accordians, spoons and drums (or whatever they call those irish or hippie things) away.

[Timbofood]

I keep thinking I should buy a bass for people to "enjoy" without the need to haul their own. When my ship comes in, if I am not at the airport, I will find a nice old one, have it set up by someone who understands how and keep it handy.
I am not overly fond of spoons but, there's always this one guy who shows up at gigs and the rest of the guys feel like it's important. I have learned to just shut up.

[Nevin]

Bass player here, electric and upright. I have an acoustic bass guitar. With tapewound strings it gives a passable imitation off an upright sound. It is not loud enough for jams. Given the size of the body it is very prone to feedback when amplified.

Given the shortage of jams inyour area and your concerns about accepting an electric bass, I would think about starting my own jam.

[Steve Ostrander]

I like the Kala U-bass. I'm a former e-bass player converted to mandolin, but when I played a Kala I was amazed at the acoustic "uprightness" of the tone. I suggested that our current e-bass player in our trio try one out. He said he didn't want to look like Tiny Tim.

While I would love to have an acoustic upright to thump on in my own home, I would never drag one to a jam. I think the BG police at jams need to be more accepting, especially if they only have to lug a guitar, mandolin, banjo, fiddle or Dobro around. Have pity on the bass player.

This is one reason why I don't go to BG jams. Too many rules. I swear, it's worse than golf.

[AlanN]

I so prefer the dog-house, and am very grateful to the guy who comes every week to the jam, lugging it.

[CeeCee_C]

All very good information. Much food for thought.

But one of my original questions remains unanswered (unless the answer was given and i missed it). Holding as many factors constant as possible, should a carved instrument produce more volume than a flat top instrument?

Thanks,

[JeffD]

But one of my original questions remains unanswered (unless the answer was given and i missed it). Holding as many factors constant as possible, should a carved instrument produce more volume than a flat top instrument?

I haven't noticed that to be the case. I haven't been scientific in my listening, but I don't think I can correlate carved tops to volume, either in mandolins or guitars.

[catmandu2]

I haven't noticed that to be the case. I haven't been scientific in my listening, but I don't think I can correlate carved tops to volume, either in mandolins or guitars.

Of course there are elements in the tone and effect--comprising many factors of acoustics from attack to decay, other than volume

But one of my original questions remains unanswered (unless the answer was given and i missed it). Holding as many factors constant as possible, should a carved instrument produce more volume than a flat top instrument?

Are you talking only acoustic bass guitars? I'm sure it's been mentioned that the utility of acoustic bass guitars is severely limited. Plugged-in, an entirely different matter..

[CeeCee_C]

I haven't noticed that to be the case. I haven't been scientific in my listening, but I don't think I can correlate carved tops to volume, either in mandolins or guitars.

Perhaps there's a systematic difference but it's too small for the human ear to detect. Perhaps other factors are more important.
Nevertheless, point taken. And i've never had two comparable instruments, one carved and the other flat top, side by side.

I'm actually looking for the theoretical answer. Perhaps I should ask Dr. Cohen?

[allenhopkins]

I have a choice of three bass options: old Pfretzschner (I think) aluminum bass fiddle, Guild Ashbory electric (silicone rubber strings, sorta like the Kala U-Bass, but solid body), tourist-grade Honduran guitarron. If I play the Ashbory, it's with a minimal amp (Fender Amp Can).

Bass fiddle if I can manage it, size and transportability are the issues. Guitarron I seldom play; the tuning's a bit weird (ADGCEA), it has friction pegs, and it's hard to hold unless you sit. Ashbory sounds close to acoustic, and I'm not a rocker or jazzer so I play a lot of simple 1-5 backups, but riding herd on volume, even with the tiny Amp Can, can be a concern.

Acoustic bass guitars just don't make it unamplified in a bluegrass context. The only ones that seemed loud enough aren't being made any more -- Ernie Ball Earthwood and Tacoma Thunderchief -- and even the nicely-made Taylor AB's were basically built to be amplified.

Quite a few of the pro bluegrass bands use or used electric basses from time to time, and I concur with the opinion voiced above, that their suitability to a jam has more to do with the player than with the instrument. Were I to bring even the Ashbory to a jam, I'd first ask if it was acceptable, than keep it turned 'way down until I sussed out the room, the other players, and their tolerance for electric instruments.

Oh, and let's not get started on other instruments -- from Autoharp to zither, alphabetically -- that should or shouldn't be allowed in the door. Those battles have been fought over and over, and in my opinion, such decisions should be made on an individual, rather than a categorical, basis.

[CeeCee_C]

Oh, and let's not get started on other instruments -- from Autoharp to zither, alphabetically -- that should or shouldn't be allowed in the door. Those battles have been fought over and over, and in my opinion, such decisions should be made on an individual, rather than a categorical, basis.

Allen -

I agree. Let's not go there. Dead horse, etc.

I'm far more interested in the technical question of achieving maximum volume from a guitar or slightly larger instrument.

[jaycat]

If by "carved top" you mean "arch top," then my experience has been that acoustic flat top guitars are louder than acoustic arch tops.

[catmandu2]

That would be pretty cool you could also sit to play it. Imagine the look on the audiences face when see you sit down with a cello and then proceed to slap out a bass line.

Sure it's been mentioned--lots of use of cello playing the "bass line" in early string band, Western swing, jazz...to guys like Ernst Reijseger, Erik Friedlander, Conelius Cardew...Mingus' first instrument was cello...incredibly versatile is an e-cello (and a looper/sequencer )

I'm far more interested in the technical question of achieving maximum volume from a guitar or slightly larger instrument.

The world is your oyster--you can make anything sound like pretty much anything these days...so what other factors might you consider?...the venerable P-bass is reliable; the Kala is super convenient; do you need to "appear" acoustic or unable to use an amp?, etc. The biggest reason to play a stringed-bass is so you can play arco-

[catmandu2]

The "how you play electric bass" posts make a lot of good points.

Yep--an electric slab is super reliable and efficient, but you have to be careful with the sustain of an electric--even just playing fundamentals with all that sustain is too much for many situations. Nothing like the punch/attack of an upright--functions in bluegrass as "percussion" as much as harmony..

Nothing like playing every song with a honkytonk beat, especially a nice waltz. Everything we played when he was there sounded like a Johnny Paycheck song from the 80s.

Yes if your bass player (and/or drummer) isn't expert with rhythmic nuance, it will never sound "right"... you can fluff a lot of harmony and recover, but the wheels come off with any/every mis-placed beat

[stevedenver]

cats dead right, gotta be in the pocket, and theres nowhere to hide in BG in that regard.

well
I don't know about all of you
but I far prefer a bass to no bass.
and im fine with electric bass, even for BG.

but I have to say, at most jams its an upright or the highway.
and I get it, because, a BG jam is just that, not a folk jam or rock jam
I had one friend that toted his semi acoustic electric bass and tiny lil amp.......
I don't recall anyone being impolite, nor, being enthusiastic, but more than likely, polite.

but, like all of you, I don't like an overbearing player, be it mando, guitar, banjo, or Fender P Bass.

CC- if I were in your shoes, re SU, id have him tote whatever he owns, and seehow he is received before investing in anything more "acceptable". I think it will be a combination of his sensitivity, and the open mindedness , or not, of the particualr gathering of folks. 'Round here at least, it seems everything is fine and all are welcome, provided no one is missing basic etiquette.

Let me say this too,
I'm reasonably strong and fit,
and I move electric gear and amps with little unhappiness.
Having schlepped a double bass more than a few times, up and down stairs, from cars and trucks in an attempt to be helpful in moving gear.....ggeeeezzzzuzzzz.....they are big, cumbersome, and while not heavy, awkward to get a grip on, and a PITA , generally speaking....point being, someone had better love playing a 3/4.......

[LongBlackVeil]

I would rather have a standup bass, but I completely understand that those are so impractical to carry around. If there's no standup bass, I would MUCH MUCH rather have an electric bass than no bass at all. The bass pulls an entire jam together and the timing of the songs are so much more on point when a bass is around.

An acoustic bass is about as good as no bass, you can't hear those things

[Mark Wilson]

I have a friend that takes his DH bass to jams in a Honda Fit. He carried the case to car dealerships to find the smallest car it would fit into. He thinks the hassle lugging it around is being faithful to the brotherhood of DH bass players or something wierd like that.

Played bass for years and a DH bass seems easier to lug around than a p-bass and a Ampeg double rig.

Would love to have one leaning in the corner of my room but mandolin has all my attention atm.

[JeffD]

And i've never had two comparable instruments, one carved and the other flat top, side by side.

The times that I have, the results have been mixed. I have an arch top that is softer than most flat tops, and I have an arch top that is louder most mandolins.

I have played (plinked around with) some beautiful guitars, and many of the arch tops were softer than flatties.

I'm actually looking for the theoretical answer. Perhaps I should ask Dr. Cohen?

A theoretical answer would be nice.

I think that carved tops are prized for their unique tonal qualities, not volume. At least with mandolins, but I think with guitar as well.

[Mandobart]

Here's what I tried for a while: I also played electric bass in rock bands and school jazz band many years back. Last year I wanted to try double bass, so I rented one from a local music shop, about $75/month. Rented for six months and really enjoyed playing. But, my local jams (and there are many) already have established bass players. Unlike every other instrument at a jam, when it comes to bass, there can only be one. So, not being really up to speed on the upright yet, and already having many many stringed instruments, and not liking hauling the 3/4 dog house around, I turned her back in to the store. I'll get back to it some day. So you should first try the prime standard, a 3/4 upright, by renting one. See how you like playing and hauling it around before you commit big $$. ABG's don't cut it, though the Arco Acoustic Bass Guitar surely has piqued my interest....

[Timbofood]

Thanks Jaycat, got us back on track.... Ooh, look a squirrel!
Oh, and I will give thanks this week for all those intrepid bass players who haul dog houses wherever and whenever needed! Double thanks to them who also brig their own amp when needed WITH said doghouse! My band is doublebassedly blessed!