Giving your work away...

[nkforster]

Have any of you been tempted to give your work away in the hope it will lead to gain in the future? That's what I asked some of the top makers. The answers are in the last two posts over at TLB.

http://www.theluthierblog.com/articl...-guitars-away/
http://www.theluthierblog.com/articl...-guitars-pt-2/

What's been your experience?

Nigel
www.theluthierblog.com

[billhay4]

I give all of my instruments away. I'm an amateur and will keep it that way. I've sold a few I didn't make, but that's another deal. My own are for friends and needy musicians. I make the decisions as to who falls into those categories, and I expect no rewards now or in the future.
Bill

[sunburst]

I have not given any instruments that I've built away. First of all, I haven't been approached by anyone universally well known as a top tier musician, the only players who might possibly be an advantage to a builder as "advertisers". I've have been approached by what amounts to second tier musicians, so called "side men", not "headliners", and I don't see how it could be to my advantage to give away instruments to them, though many of them seem to think they deserve to have instruments given to them.
I have given discounts to good musicians, or otherwise made deals with them to help them get an instrument for less; payment plans, partial trades, that sort of thing, but the only gain I believe I've gotten from that is knowing that I've helped a deserving, good musician to get a good instrument. In general, I think "endorsement deals" have gotten so ubiquitous that they have been cheapened. We can find pictures of prominent musicians holding or playing many different brands from one time period to another. It's almost like the "guitar of the week club" in some cases. When we know that some prominent player plays a vintage factory instrument yet shows up in ads endorsing first one than another brand, who gains from that?

I feel an obligation to myself and to other builders (and players) to charge all I reasonably can for my instruments. If I'm building a similar quality instrument to someone else yet I'm selling it for significantly less money I'm undercutting his/her pricing and that hurts us all as builders (branding and other intangibles that push up prices of certain builders aside). We who do this for a living are now competing in the market with not only factory instruments, but with assembled kits and hobby-built instruments from amateur builders of varying ability. If what's left of the "golder age of lutherie" is to last much longer, the market cannot remain flooded with instruments given away or sold for too little money by those who feel no obligation to themselves or other builders to get a fair price for their work. If said builders "don't need the money", that's fine, but it doesn't help the community of builders when they give away instruments or sell them for less than their value. If said builders are undercutting professionals in order to be charitable to musicians, I can understand that, but perhaps it would be better for the community of builders if they charged a fair price for their instruments and then donated to kickstarter projects, supported musicians by attending shows and buying recordings, supported venues or other things that help musicians make a living.

In short, I think giving instruments to prominent musicians rarely works to the advantage of the builder and I think it can be bad for the community of builders as a whole because it can drive prices down across the board and make it more difficult for struggling builders to continue in business. In other words, we can be helping out deserving struggling musicians at the expense of deserving struggling instrument builders.
Why is it considered normal for builders to give instruments to struggling musicians to help them out while I've never heard of a musician paying a builder more than he/she has asked for an instrument? Why is there an accepted culture of established builders helping out struggling musicians while there isn't really a culture of musicians helping out struggling builders? I've had emerging musicians approach me and tell me how much money I can make selling instruments if I will only give them one to appear with and promote. What makes them think I will fall for that? Why is it that some established, well known musicians expect to be given instruments by struggling builders when they are people who can afford good instruments and can actually use them to make money? It seems to me they might want to consider paying full price to "help out" the builder rather than expecting the struggling builder to "help them out" by giving them an instrument. Compare the income of the top musicians in the world to the income of the top luthiers in the world. The handful of mandolin builders at the very top of the market are doing OK when it comes to income, but compare that to Dave Matthews. Who should be expected to be charitable to whom, players of builders? Perhaps it should go both ways from time to time, but are there examples of musicians "helping out" builders? I only know of few.

I've spent some time typing and editing this, starting with only 2 posts in the thread, so there may well be other posts by the time I click "post", so if there is redundant information or if this is ground that has already been covered, that is the reason.

[peter.coombe]

I agree wholeheartedly with John. I "helped out" a couple of musicians many years ago, but the number of sales resulting from that was negligible. Never again. If a musician pays full price for your instrument then they will value it more and actually play it at gigs. Not only that, but other musicians will take more notice that so and so prominent musician paid full price so that must mean something. A give away means nothing. Like John I have been approached by many musicians who want to "endorse" my mandolins and "improve sales", but a bit of research will soon tell me they are emerging or second tier musicians after a free instrument. The likelihood of increased sales is likely to be pretty dim. The "offer" is politely declined. Every time I point out that I have been approached many times by musicians chasing a freebee I never hear from them again. Why should a musician value my work less than their own? If a musician does not value my work then they are better off without it. I have sold mandolins to prominent musicians, but they paid full price.

[pickit007]

When I read this: "Have any of you been tempted to give your work away in the hope it will lead to gain in the future?", my immediate assumption was that it was going to be about "giving your work away" by "playing" free...the paralell is startling. In My community the "uper echelon" player get really up set for people to play free or for token amounts.

I once went the other way with a builder, I was a professional photographer at the time and just before Winfield (that's a little festival just south of here ) I picked up all the mandos he was taking to his booth at the festival and did extensive photographs of them all for him, I also put a photo album together for him which people could also go through at the booth and he could show potential cuatomers as he hoped to sell some of these. For my effort I was to get an "undertmined" (opps on my part) "discount' on a future instrument, well, a few months later he moved to the big city (where doesn't matter), I talked to him on the phone some months later (he called me???), when I mentioned the discount he said I should have ordered a mando from him sooner as he was charging more and couldn't discount his instrument, I didn't order an instrument...ego is a strange thing.

[Graham McDonald]

There are a few of mine out them on 'loan' to young or otherwise impoverished musicians who would never be able to afford a halfway decent instrument otherwise. Every now and again I end up with an instrument that just doesn't want to be sold, and I can usually find someone deserving to take care of it. None are and probably never will be famous, and I doubt if any sales will ever come of it, but I think it is better that they get played rather than sit in a case in the cupboard. That is of course different to someone well known angling for a freebie, and like Peter I have politely declined a few such offers over the years. At the same time when I did sell a bouzouki to one of the most famous Irish bouzouki players (at full price) it didn't do a thing for sales.

cheers

[David Houchens]

I've given discounts but never for free. Only the first one paid off. The other two did nothing.
I've given several away for charity events to be raffled. I do these because I want to give back some of what I've been given, not for anything in return.

[Dave Cohen]

Ervin Somogyi wrote a nice one-page essay on this subject some time ago. It appeared in either American Lutherie or Guitarmaker. Don't remember which. There are three huge problems with giving your work away, or even with deeply discounting it. First, if you are a small shop, making maybe 6 or even 10 instruments per year, giving away just one instrument is a loss of between 10 & 20% of your gross income. You can't afford that. Maybe Gibson can, although I doubt that it is good economics for them either. Second, if you give an instrument away, you encourage players to try to get something for nothing from other luthiers as well. So you are not just hurting yourself, but others too. Third, the so-called "endorsement deals" as broached by players are rarely written legal documents, and I have never heard of one which specified any actions by the player or benefits to the luthier. If a deal between a luthier and a player is to be a business deal, then there should be some specific benefit(s) for the luthier in return for the instrument or the discount on it. Oh, and fourth, I almost forgot. The players rarely keep an instrument given to them in a so-called "endorsement deal". I have seen and heard of them selling those instruments numerous times. They sell it because they can.

I wish I had a nickel for every time some kid told me he was an up-and-coming player, he would really like to have one of my instruments, and did I do "endorsement deals". I never had heard of any of those kids, & still haven't. Most recently, I got an e-mail from Ireland from a "well knoen celtic player" that I had never heard of. He attached a photo of one of my C# mandolins, said he would like to have one, and if he played one, it would be "worth my while". He didn't inquire about price. I responded that I was a small one-man shop, and couldn't afford to give away a mandolin. Never heard from him again.

[Jeff Mando]

I guess the other side of the coin would be somebody like Doc Watson endorsing Gallagher guitars. I'm sure Gallagher guitars are wonderful, but basically a copy of a Martin, which is also wonderful. Doc seemed very loyal to Gallagher and I'm sure his endorsement put them on the "map" so to speak.

[sunburst]

I guess the other side of the coin would be somebody like Doc Watson endorsing Gallagher guitars.

Doc Watson, Chris Thile, Sam Bush, Tony Rice, Bela Fleck, etc...
None of those guys have ever approached me about an instrument, and if one of them did, I suspect he would offer to pay for it. Those are not the people asking for free instruments (partly because they are sometimes given instruments anyway, and partly because they can afford to buy one if they want it). There are examples of major career boosts for builders resulting from prominent players, but there are only a few players at the top of the business in terms or notoriety that are truly capable of boosting a builders business.
(I feel privileged to have instruments in the hands of top level players, but they are not famous people, and they paid for their instruments.)

[bart mcneil]

Once you move from amateur to professional the $ sign becomes important. There is nothing wrong with being amateur and in fact it allows you freedom the professional loses when he places a dollar value on his labor and his instruments. Every instrument you give a way is money you do not make so in essence you are acting like an amateur, while claiming to be professional. I learned this the hard way from giving my services away to worthy causes and having them come back and expect the same labor for nothing, again, and again. I was in fact a lousy business person and eventually paid the price.

[Bernie Daniel]

Doc Watson, Chris Thile, Sam Bush, Tony Rice, Bela Fleck, etc...
None of those guys have ever approached me about an instrument, and if one of them did, I suspect he would offer to pay for it. Those are not the people asking for free instruments (partly because they are sometimes given instruments anyway, and partly because they can afford to buy one if they want it). There are examples of major career boosts for builders resulting from prominent players, but there are only a few players at the top of the business in terms or notoriety that are truly capable of boosting a builders business.
(I feel privileged to have instruments in the hands of top level players, but they are not famous people, and they paid for their instruments.)

Like you say it is a rare thing. On example might the Gibson Hummingbird which got a big boost in popularity because Mike Jagger (or was it other UK rocker) started playing one on stage? Then again there is Bill Monroe paying full price for "barber shop" Gibson Loar and that seemed to have a positive effect too?

[michaelcj]

Not exactly on point of the OP's question…but, Most of the repair and restoration work I do up here in our little island community I do on a modified barter system. Cost[$] for the parts… labor has resulted in local raised lamb [yum!], good scotch, massage sessions, coffee cards at Issabel's Espresso..etc.

I still work full time so the building and repair is a hobby. The builds are for myself..so far.

Most of the local musicians are "working' folk" with not a lot of extra cash and I look at it as a Karmac Bank deposit.

Now, in a couple of years when I pull the plug and retire I might look at it a bit different, but by then I may have already "fixed" all the broken mandos, banjos, irish harps, guitars on the island. Oh well…. I'm haven' fun anyway.
Mike

[buckhorn]

with my short ten or so years of experience in building, I've experienced everything mentioned in this post.. with thirty some mandolins built, I have sold a few, donated some ,and some were given to friends and family.. the few given away that I thought might be of benefit just didn't do anything to promote any sales.. I'll keep plugging away, but it won't become a business, just a passion that keeps me going...

[David Newton]

Every player in my son's band gets free repairs, all three of them, but they have to pay for their own strings.
That might change if they ever get a paying gig.
That's about it for free stuff.

[Jeff Mando]

Doc Watson, Chris Thile, Sam Bush, Tony Rice, Bela Fleck, etc...
None of those guys have ever approached me about an instrument, and if one of them did, I suspect he would offer to pay for it. Those are not the people asking for free instruments (partly because they are sometimes given instruments anyway, and partly because they can afford to buy one if they want it). There are examples of major career boosts for builders resulting from prominent players, but there are only a few players at the top of the business in terms or notoriety that are truly capable of boosting a builders business.
(I feel privileged to have instruments in the hands of top level players, but they are not famous people, and they paid for their instruments.)

My point about Doc Watson and Gallagher was twofold. When Gallagher approached Doc Watson in 1968, he was certainly known, but Gallagher was fairly unknown and had only been making guitars a few years. And, in those days, people like Doc Watson could be approached and do a deal with a handshake and no need for lawyers and managers to be involved.

I met Carl Perkins a few years before he died and I asked him about Micro-Frets electric guitars. He told me he didn't really care for them, but they were nice enough to send them to him, so he felt the least he could do was play them on TV with Johnny Cash to give them some exposure. Man, those were some innocent days!

[sunburst]

Yeah, times were different in those days. There was an apparent innocence to the spontaneous "circle album" exchange;
"That guitar, by the way, rings like a bell!"
"It's a pretty good ol' box. A Mr. Gallagher made this thing...".
Sort of early "product placement".
If we were to hear something like that on a recording now, it would sound completely contrived and you could envision the stacks of signed contracts that led up to it. Those few spoken words on that particular album put Gallagher guitars on the map.
It so happens that a friend of mine, who shows up and posts here from time to time, built at least one guitar for Doc Watson more recently than that famous album. Anyone know who that is? What did that do for his business?
Times have changed.

[amowry]

I too agree with everything John said. I can't think of any other field where one would be asked, or expected, to give away one or two months' labor for free. It's a pretty slim profit margin in this field already (not that I'm complaining; there are plenty of other benefits) without giving away instruments. I've been asked about it many times as well, but it's just not an option for me, or, I suspect, for most of us.

[Ron McMillan]

A repeated theme from builders seems to be that, after hearing politely from the builder that a freebie is not possible, none of the people doing the fishing even bother to respond.

That's proof enough that these people don't deserve a builder's time or money.

[bohemianbiker]

I'm not a builder, but everything folks are saying about not giving it away makes sense to me.

Let me ask about a situation which I assume is different than what is being discussed; a situation like Sierra Hull playing Weber mandolins. I would assume she's not only getting free instruments, but $ as well (but I'm totally speculating). It seems like a great deal for her, but I've often wondered if the arrangement pays off for Weber. Do they real sell more product than they incur costs for this kind of advertising? And they have other "Weber Artists" as well. Weber knows the business a heckuva lot better than I do, so maybe it does pay off. bb

[pops1]

I have a friend that is a blues player and gets instruments and amps for less or free, yes he has sold some of them and yes he has changed instruments and now indorses different instruments. To get this he has to record and use a pic of him and the instrument on the cover of the album. Most are companies that are doing well and can afford it and can use the TAX WRITE OFF that they receive from giving something away.

[JEStanek]

I wouldn't assume anyone is getting paid to use someone's instruments.

I think for small shop builders giving away your work is a bad idea. People come to you specifically because they want what larger manufacturers aren't making/doing/sound like what they're after. Different strokes for different players.

Jamie

[Lynn Dudenbostel]

I've always been of the opinion that the true endorsement is when someone thinks enough of your work to pay their hard earned money for it. Who wouldn't take one for free?! That's not an endorsement in my book.

[Jeff Mando]

[QUOTE=sunburst Who should be expected to be charitable to whom, players of builders? Perhaps it should go both ways from time to time, but are there examples of musicians "helping out" builders? I only know of few. [/QUOTE]

Like we've said previously, we live in different world today than that of the 60's or 70's. A somewhat dated example I can think of would be Zemaitis had a strong "cult" following of A-list musicians back in the day who supported his work. Keith Richards, Ron Wood, Hendrix, Joe Perry, Bobby Womack, George Harrison--all wanted his stuff--I don't know if that made him a millionaire, but he had a level of endorsement that money couldn't buy and to my knowledge, he never gave away his stuff.

Speaking of George Harrison, of course, he was known for playing Gretsch Chet Atkins guitars. He said in a later interview that it never dawned on him to approach Gretsch about his own signature model--of course, they would have jumped at the chance! (I mean, after all, they made a Monkees signature guitar!!!)

I don't know any current superstars personally that get endorsements. I do know many good players who have received free Gibson guitars for their endorsement. I don't know any who receive money on top of that. Usually they agree to be photographed with the guitar and have it displayed on a stand on stage while they are performing. Sometimes only used for a certain song, etc. I also know several players who get endorements in the form of being able to buy a custom made guitar at cost. I also know musicians who have received free guitars and sold them. So..... Like most people, I always assumed an artist endorsing a brand would received a big salary to go with it, but I don't believe that is the case in most situations. Somebody like Van Halen, might be an exception, but I'm not sure...I think he sells his own brand these days.

I get a few music catalogs in the mail and most of the Fender and Gibson signature guitars are by artists I have never heard of. Granted, they might be great and granted, I might be old.

I think, also, the Gallagher came at a time before boutique builders were a common thing. Back then there was Gibson and Martin and for Bluegrass, it was really just Martin. I remember my friends saying, "Doc Watson found a guitar that sounds better than a Martin!" An unbelieveable concept for a 14-year old kid playing a $69 Alvarez acoustic. Today, of course, we are quite familar with artists playing "handmade" guitars. (that word again)

Most of my examples are guitars, I would think the mandolin market would be much smaller.

[Tom C]

I don't agree with giving away work but look at the world of movie stars. Though they probably don't go out searching for it but they are given tens(and hundreds) of thousands of dollars worth of clothes, cars, jewelry (which you don't even see a label) just for the prominence of somebody important associated with their product.