Mandolins cost ___?____...audience participation

[Rush Burkhardt]

I saw “another” thread whilst doing my usual surfing. It was the plea of “another” new player entering our midst and asking the usual questions…what, how much, who, etc. My anal mind finally succumbed to the pressure. This is in no way meant to be definitive or to pigeon-hole anyone (most of all myself) It seemed like a good way to look at the mando situation, on this day in 2014, from 40,000 feet.

The attempt here is to answer the basic question: “What am I gonna’ pay for a mandolin?” [I've attempted to attach a PDF in case you want to play!]



Caveats:

• I’m a bluegrasser and didn’t range far from “ff” holes. Easy to add to the chart, yourself, though!
• Many of these manufacturers have a wide range of models with differing features and custom mods.
• * - Some Gibson autographed models (Bush, Bibey, Benson, Lawson, etc.) sell in this range.
• Obviously, many of the models range across price lines (ie. Kentuckys range from $215 to $3500 (BM model). I’ve highlighted those that are most far-reaching.)
• There are many fine builders, creating small numbers of mandolins and various prices. I apologize for ignoring anyone!

On getting closer to “my” endpoint, it is painfully clear that I’ve only scratched the surface. For those of you whose mandolins I’ve missed, and those of you who play classical, choro, etc. where bowlbacks and flattop mandolins are dominant, I apologize. I have no proprietary hold over this exercise. As such, feel free to add to, improve, modify or trash, as you please.

[journeybear]

FWIW, there are mandolins for sale under $200. I haven't played any of them other than a Rogue (surprisingly, acceptable sounding) and Michael Kelly (seriously sunken top, so jury still out). But I am a little saddened to see that prices are going up, if this is any indication, and the once very affordable Rogue has suffered a 20% increase, now priced at a lofty $59.99.

[Jeff Mando]

Great chart, Rush! I especially like the .2-.9K, LOL. I remember the first time I saw the K associated with vintage guitar pricing was at the Arlington Guitar Show--one seller had all his booth priced that way, 1K, 2.5K, 3.75K--It wasn't the laziness that offended me, I guess it was the yuppiness of it, that he couldn't be bothered to write three zeros that many times in one weekend! Anyway, me and my buddy joked about it all weekend--as if we needed to make the vintage market any more "elite". Of course, now the K is commonplace.

[Tobin]

You have Ellis listed in the 5-10K range. This is true for a new A model or a used F5, but not for a new F5. It should be in the 10-25K area.

[Rush Burkhardt]

If there's enough input, like that received so far, with additions and adjustments, I'll make some changes and re-post the chart periodically.

[edandjudy3946]

guess the awesome woody Silverangel didn't make the list (Fs are 4K plus upgrades, As 2K+) used - well good luck with that - not very often

[Rush Burkhardt]

Pure over-sight! Lots of others, I'm sure!

[Jim Garber]

I think you might want to re-work this chart to either fine tune the price ranges. For instance $5k-10K is a long stretch. I would say $5-7K and 7K to 10k. Even better would be to use a different graph with a continuous horizontal price scale and with brands indicated by bars extending from the low to the high. I am not sure what that type of graph or chart is called but it would make a lot more sense.

[jim simpson]

I think you should be applauded for attempting the chart. I look forward to refinements.

I would like to see a chart/guide for used instruments with dollar amount deductions for things like refinish, overspray, repaired cracks, headstock repair, heel crack repair, non-original parts, etc.

[Jim Garber]

This would get quite complicated esp to add the used/vintage stuff plus the condition. Frankly, it would be easier and prob a lot more accurate to stick to the new ones -- even that would require constant updating. The VG Price Guide over the years is getting some what better in the mandolin department but they do have it down for vintage guitars. I haven't received my 2015 book yet but it gets thicker and thicker with more info. Unfortunately they usually just mention the small shop boutique ones since their focus is vintage, However, you can get the current prices of builders. Some post it on their site and others will quote you what they ask.

In terms of vintage stuff, VG has a general rule of thumb for condition. I think it has to be general because dealers and private sellers treat all this differently and very often it depends on the rarity and the desirability of the instrument.

[mandroid]

All I can do is say what I bought .. just mention 2.. Only F5 I own is Czech made .

.. Mix A5 .. Used Buys

[OldSausage]

There's no need for any of this complicated stuff. It's all governed by one simple formula:

P = 4x + 1000.

Where P is the price of the mandolin in dollars, and x is the amount of money your spouse thinks you should pay for it.

[Kroland]

Fantastic idea! Couple of personal opinions if you want em: I'd separate the .2-.9K column into two columns (eg. .1K-.3K might have Rover, Kentucky, etc and .4K-.9K might have Eastman, The Loar, Kentucky, JBovier, etc.) because that's the price range where the biggest gains are made. There's a huge difference between the cheapest Washburn and a Kentucky KM950. And another personal opinion is that I don't know anyone who owns a The Loar that cost over 1k, but I know several who own and love a Kentucky in the 1K-1.5K range (eg. KM900, KM1000), so I might replace The Loar in that column with Kentucky. And from there it's just adding a few more popular makers to each column if you like. Love it!

[EdHanrahan]

Not sure if I should be kicking myself for passing up a nice, barely used Capek F5 at $2,700, about 3 years ago. The "problem" with it (besides OS's "P = 4x + 1000" formula) was that it was up against a really nice used Altman, at around $8,500!

[barry k]

Rush, Barry Kratzer here....you might as well put me in the over 3 K bracket while your updating.....price increase is in effect immiediatly...3.4 to be exact

[journeybear]

I think you should be applauded for attempting the chart. I look forward to refinements.

I would like to see a chart/guide for used instruments with dollar amount deductions for things like refinish, overspray, repaired cracks, headstock repair, heel crack repair, non-original parts, etc.

This would get quite complicated esp to add the used/vintage stuff plus the condition. Frankly, it would be easier and prob a lot more accurate to stick to the new ones -- even that would require constant updating.

Exactly. One person's used instrument is another's vintage, and prices vary so widely and wildly as a result. All one can do reliably is list prices for new ones - which vary enough from list price to stores' discounted prices - but are still more consistent. At least that would give people something like a standard by which they can measure and compare, even as prices fluctuate.

[DataNick]

Rush,

Great idea and chart! Awesome Man!

Once completed, perhaps a link on the homepage could be created under FAQs or something.

Well done Sir!

[JeffD]

I think such a chart needs some instructions attached. Reason is that, I know from my own experience, when someone shows me a chart that "makes sense of things" I follow the chart. Especially when I am a newbie. I don't seem to know how to use a chart as a guide line but still do my own thinking. I say to myself - well that explains it. That's how it is.

I have missed catching many a trout because some chart told me I had the wrong flies.

For example,

1 - Explain that the numbers are expected ranges, to avoid sticker shock and organize one's expectations. I would hate to have someone take that chart into a shop and argue with the seller on that basis.

2 - I would explain that just because a given mandolin is outside (below or above) the ranges indicated, is not a reason to rule it out. It is a yellow light, a warning to further research the reasons - previous repair, special custom features etc. I think too rigid adherence to the chart could cause one to lose a sweet deal or get what isn't such a good deal, or miss getting really cool instrument for a modest bit more.

Probably some other caveats that would be good to put in there.

Something like that.

[DataNick]

I'm all for clarity, but a measure of common sense to me is appropriate if the chart is presented. A simple "this is a guide not gospel" should suffice, no?

[JeffD]

Well one would think, but I know that when I am new at something and grasping for anything that will help things make sense, and also being a nerd....

[Denman John]

A lot of great small shop luthiers/builders are not included on this list that should probably be there. With a few exceptions, it also seems very American and bluegrass oriented in focus. I imagine that a lot of Cafe member lists would be different than above, but at least it's a starting point.

Thanks for sharing.

[Rush Burkhardt]

Some really great suggestions, folks! As you can imagine, I made some decisions based upon the tool (MS WORD), the space provided (number of columns would begin to dictate very small fonts), resources (relatively unlimited, in that if one is willing to search enough, there's almost 1) a never ending supply of information; 2)a continuously moving target; 3) and selfishly, time!

Maybe someone who's more computer could design a document or documents that WE COULD ALL administrate! I guess we could link to a Facebook page or some simple webpage that would allow a member to enter new information. Maybe there would need to be a filter of some sort to keep out the frivolous and hecklers.

My intent was, KISS, and DataNick's caveat "this is a guide not gospel" This could be an enjoyable and interesting collection of information...as long as no one is thrown-under-the-bus!

Update on its way!!!

[Rush Burkhardt]

Caveats, Excuses and Human Limitations [Update 1]…Please read before using the Chart!!!!
This is in no way meant to pigeon-hole anyone (most of all myself) It seemed like a good way to look at the mando situation, on this day in 2014, from 40,000 feet.
The attempt here is to answer the basic question: “What am I gonna’ pay for a mandolin?”
1) There are many fine builders, creating small numbers of mandolins and various prices. I apologize for ignoring anyone!
2) I’m a bluegrass-er and didn’t range far from “ff” holes. Easy to add to the chart, yourself, though! Send me those you'd like added (builder, model [A, F, Oval, ff], and price range.) I'll attempt to add them to the chart!
3) Many of these builders have a wide range of models with differing prices, features and custom mods. (IE Kentucky's range from $215 to $3500 [BM model]. I’ve highlighted those that I perceived to be most far-reaching.)
4) The price numbers are “expected ranges”…set your expectations. Pricing outside the expected ranges MIGHT indicate a yellow flag and require further inspection!
5) * - Some Gibson autographed models (Bush, Bibey, Benson, Lawson, etc.) sell in this range.
6) When possible or when your thoughts make it appropriate, I'll update this chart as best I can.

It is painfully clear that I’ve only scratched the surface. For those of you whose mandolins I’ve missed, and those of you who play classical, choro, etc. where bowl backs, oval-hole and flattop mandolins are dominant, I apologize. I also appreciated ideas for sliding scales and horizontal pricing...(Those are good ideas! and would appreciate new models constructed to achieve those ends.) I have no proprietary hold over this exercise. As such, feel free to add to, improve, modify or trash ('throw away' don't 'trash the messenger'), as you please.

[Pete Jenner]

It is painfully clear that I’ve only scratched the surface. For those of you whose mandolins I’ve missed, and those of you who play classical, choro, etc. where bowl backs, oval-hole and flattop mandolins are dominant, I apologize.

It's a commendable effort Rush but I think you've missed a couple of hundred builders.

[journeybear]

Eh? He addressed this in his post, Item 1.

This is an epic task - Herculean in scope, Sisyphean in nature - and what he needs, besides a commendation just for trying, and encouragement to continue, is contribution, not criticism.