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Thread: Gibson head luthiers

  1. #26
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Quote Originally Posted by jochemgr View Post
    My assumption at the beginning of the thread was that there would be a person in charge of building Gibson Mandolins who is signing the labels. As it turned out that is the case sometimes, but definitely not always. It looks like Triggs and Carlson were signing labels at the same time and so were Derrington and Roberts. The job titles have changed throughout the years, which makes sense.

    So I guess my question now is more three-fold:
    - Who was in charge of Gibson Mandolins over the years?
    - Did they sign labels?
    - Did anyone else sign labels during these years?
    Now you are in a totally different world. The guys signing the label are more like Quality Assurance folks plus some. Loar didn't build at Gibson but his influence was felt. There are some historical records with names of plant managers and some employee names but keep in mind that Gibson was a factory and that people did pieces of the instruments being built.
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  2. #27
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Not sure what you are saying there Mike, can you clarify?
    Loar was surely(and don't call me Shirley) the man who cast the die for "Quality Assurance" as an acoustical engineer.
    Mr. Loar was the designer though not the "Man on the line" at the factory. And, in my mind there is the determining factor with respect to the value of the signature. As none of the subsequent signatory staff were not so noted, how much weight can be given them other than, "Opinionated Luthier?" Or "Talented Craftsman"?
    I see it as "A rose by any other name" argument.
    There might be a whole (large) kettle of fish on this subject.
    I have been mistaken before and doubtless will be in the future. Signatures by themselves,don't hold much water unless an improvement has been made.
    Not trying to agitate or belittle but, I don't see how much added value "Ferd Berfel's" name has.
    I miss Rowan and Martin's "Laugh In"!
    Last edited by Timbofood; Oct-30-2014 at 8:45pm.
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    1966 F5 jochemgr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Just to clarify, with "in charge" I didn't mean financially as it would presumably be a Gibson CFO who at times may not have known the difference between a mando and a uke (Who cares about a few hundred mandolins if you're selling 1000's of electric guitars a year!?)
    I meant the person who's in charge of the Mandolin (acoustic?) department and makes decisions for the mandolins specifically, changes in design, approval of finished instruments. I realise now it's a fine line and not always clearly defined.

    Maybe we should stick to who signed the mandolin labels to keep it simpler.

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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    If the person that signed the labels didn`t have anything to do with quality control then what is the big deal about a signed mandolin?

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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie View Post
    If the person that signed the labels didn`t have anything to do with quality control then what is the big deal about a signed mandolin?
    You got me Willie. I have no idea what you're responding to.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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  6. #31
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Quote Originally Posted by Timbofood View Post
    Not sure what you are saying there Mike, can you clarify?
    Loar was surely(and don't call me Shirley) the man who cast the die for "Quality Assurance" as an acoustical engineer.
    Mr. Loar was the designer though not the "Man on the line" at the factory. And, in my mind there is the determining factor with respect to the value of the signature. As none of the subsequent signatory staff were not so noted, how much weight can be given them other than, "Opinionated Luthier?" Or "Talented Craftsman"?
    I see it as "A rose by any other name" argument.
    There might be a whole (large) kettle of fish on this subject.
    I have been mistaken before and doubtless will be in the future. Signatures by themselves,don't hold much water unless an improvement has been made.
    Not trying to agitate or belittle but, I don't see how much added value "Ferd Berfel's" name has.
    I miss Rowan and Martin's "Laugh In"!
    Again, I'm not sure what you're questioning. Loar didn't build the mandolins at Gibson. He may have asked for things that the management then approved for the instrument, the f holes, the longer neck, etc. That could be considered designing but I'd guess there was a luthier with knowledge of building mandolins putting those desired things in place and a group building the instrument. Loar then approved the instrument with his signature and Gibson sent it on it's way. I'm assuming that if he got one that was a dog he sent it back to be reworked but that's an assumption. He signed the labels, he was quality control plus a little more as I stated in my post. What am I missing? If someone wanted to buy a Loar designed and built mandolin they had a chance to when he started his own company after he left Gibson. You can buy a ViviTone mandolin for a lot less than a Loar signed Gibson. I'm sure he was a bright guy that added to the instruments maturity but others built those instruments, his signature identifies them.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  7. #32
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Quote Originally Posted by jochemgr View Post
    Maybe we should stick to who signed the mandolin labels to keep it simpler.
    You've got a better chance of identifying them. Otherwise you need some Gibson factory employment documents that probably don't exist. The modern documents probably wouldn't be made available anyway. Joe Spann's Gibson book has some information about what was happening up through the 30's. It's an incredible book for certain information and has changed what many of us took as gospel but I'm not sure how much it will provide for you on your quest.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  8. #33
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    I think we are pretty much one the same page Mike, no, Loar didn't build, he improved the design and was the acoustical engineer. And the label signatures reflected that he had approved each one specifically.
    Excellent point about the ViVi tones too!
    Timothy F. Lewis
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  9. #34
    Registered User David Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    The attached photo is the label in a 1998 Gibson F5-G for sale at "Picker's Supply" in Fredericksburg, Va. Let's see who signed this instrument. It's obviously Paul somebody. What say ye?
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    This is a great post idea and it would be wonderful to get all the data down somewhere. But it's going to be hard to connect all the dots as to who was in charge vs who was the builder vs who signed the labels. Loar was not a builder, and to my knowledge he was not even "in charge" of mandolin production. During his tenure at Gibson he wore many hats, including demo artist, marketing, training the sales team (from a musician's perspective), and being the company's self-appointed "acoustical engineer." Loar was very focused, highly motivated, and responsible for the design of many wonderful instruments include the F5, H5, L5, as well as the development of the Master Tone (later to become one word) banjo line, and several accessories. You can think of Loar's contributions much in the same light as that of Les Paul, except that Loar lived in Kalamazoo and was at the plant regularly whereas Paul lived in NJ and was to the plant rarely. As Mike E pointed out, I was never an "employee" of Gibson but was instead a consultant from 1973 to 1985 traveling to the plant almost monthly from my NJ home and shop. I had access to the plant, and was responsible for numerous projects - including the launch of the F5L and the Earl Scruggs Banjo line - but never was responsible for any employees. As previously mentioned, Bill Halsey - a talented mandolin builder and fiddle bow maker - lived in Kalamazoo and was a consultant who worked with me on the F5L project as draftsman (his drawings were amazing). Another consultant working with us was Abe Wechter who lived in Kalamazoo, and was charged with seeing that the various stages of development of the F5L (and other projects) were seen to completion at the plant. The mandolins and banjos were assembled in the "old building" in a small area on the first floor by only a few luthiers. All of the guitars - electric and acoustic - as well as preparation of parts and final finishing went through the main plant, adjacent to the "old building." Although Stan Rendell signed some labels, he was company president until 1975 and had virtually nothing to do with mandolin production. During the time I was working on the F5L (1977-1979) there were three mandolin luthiers; Aaron Cowles, Wilbur Fuller, and Dick Doan and each of them built an F5L prototype for the June 1978 NAMM show (the F5L prototype I have was signed by Wilbur). (Aaron was a great builder and I just learned from Aaron's son that Aaron passed away last year.) There were department managers throughout the plant, and at the moment I can see the face of the person who was in charge of the mandolin department in the late 1970s, but at the moment I can't remember his name (I'll post it when I think of it). All of department managers were under plant manager, Tom Fedders who came out of the furniture business and understood cabinets and dressers, but I was always a bit unclear on how deep his understanding was of musical instruments. Within a few months after Rendell left in 1974, Norlin brought in Carl Spinoso to replace Fedders as plant manager. Carl understood less than Fedders about musical instruments and did little more than just oversee things. He was there for about a year and a half, or maybe less, and when he left, Jim Deurloo took over as plant manager until the plant moved to Nashville in 1983-84. Jim was with Gibson earlier, then left to manage Guild, then came back to Gibson. Jim really understands stringed musical instruments, is sensitive to what musicians need, and is an amazing guy who I think of as the penultimate manager. When the plant moved to Nashville, Jim stayed back in Kalamazoo and he and a few former Gibson employees - Marv Lamb included - started Heritage Guitars, renting space in the Gibson's "old building" where they are today. The deal with how Steve Carlson got involved is an interesting and twisted story - and I hope he'll come on some day and tell the story. I'm sure Joe Spann has some info to share on this. I'm sure I'll think of more to add later. …R

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  12. #36
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Quote Originally Posted by David Smith View Post
    The attached photo is the label in a 1998 Gibson F5-G for sale at "Picker's Supply" in Fredericksburg, Va. Let's see who signed this instrument. It's obviously Paul somebody. What say ye?
    Paul Schneider. See this post.
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  13. #37

    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Just for the record, Julius Bellson never signed any mandolins. That stopped after Loar left, and was started again in the 70's, as noted in these posts. .....I wonder if there were signatures in the immediate post Loar F5's..would they be much more valuable? I bet they would.
    Comments?

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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    I don't know. The serial number/FON combination identifies the post Loar instruments and the "unsigned Loars" do command a bit of a premium. Who knows.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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    1966 F5 jochemgr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Wow, thanks all so much for responding. Great post by Mr Siminoff, much appreciated. I love reading this kind of history. Also received a great email from Mr Daley who confirmed he signed labels from 1998 to Thanksgiving of 2001. Quote: Although I supervised ALL the mandolins built during my time there Charlie signed the Master Model labels and I signed the rest. I also signed 90% of all the mandolins that were build under my supervise on the inside of the top, either up by the headlock in the earlier days or later back by the tailpiece.

    That makes the list of label signatories look like this:
    Lloyd Loar (1923-1924)
    Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1974)
    Arron Cowles (1978-?)
    Wilbur Fuller (1978)
    Dick Doan (1978)
    Herman Meintz (1980)
    Jerry Rowland (1981-?)
    Jim Triggs (1986-?)
    Steve Carlson (1986-1993)
    Dennis Balin (?)
    Phil Brug (199?)
    Larry Barnwell (1994-1995)
    Bruce Weber (1994?-1997)
    Paul Schneider (1997-1998)
    Simeon C. Daley (1998-2001)
    Charlie Derrington (1998-2004)
    Danny Roberts (2001-2005)
    Casey Sullivan (2005-2007)
    David Harvey (2008-2014)
    Last edited by jochemgr; Nov-02-2014 at 7:15pm.

  17. #40
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Somewhere here we have a post by Joe Vest, a former Gibson employee that mentions that Sim was the only one signing the underside of the top on mandolins. The other builders apparently didn't do that. I think you should just remove Julius Bellson from the list. The next thing to do would be to identify the years missing.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  18. #41
    1966 F5 jochemgr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    I think you should just remove Julius Bellson from the list. The next thing to do would be to identify the years missing.
    Agree, have edited my post and removed Bellson. Thanks!

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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    If you post the years that you're missing (obviously not 24 to 70) and we ask folks that own Gibson mandolins from those years to post who signed them we might be able to fill in the list a little more.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    I've done a good bit of research, mainly on Google, found a few more details on some of the signatories. Updated list below. Biggest question-mark is Dennis A. Balin, I haven't been able to find any Gibsons signed by him, although I can find Flatirons. Also not sure who signed between 1981 and 1986, although I found a guitar signed by Jerry Rowland in 1984 so possibly he was still signing mandolins back then as well. I could be missing more but there were often multiple signatories at the same time so it's hard to spot the gaps.

    Lloyd Loar (1922-1924) *
    Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1975) *
    Aaron Cowles (1978-1984)
    Wilbur Fuller (1978)
    Richard Doan (1978-1980) *
    Herman Meints (1979-1980)
    Jerry Rowland (1981)
    Jim Triggs (1986-1989)
    Steve B. Carlson (1986-1993) *
    Dennis A. Balin (?)
    Phil Brug (1993-1994)
    Larry Barnwell (1994-1995) *
    Bruce D. Weber (1993-1997)
    Paul Schneider (1997-1998) *
    Simeon C. Daley (1998-2001)
    Charlie Derrington (1998-2004) *
    Danny Roberts (2001-2005) *
    Casey Q. Sullivan (2005-2007)
    David W. Harvey (2008-2014) *

    If followed by a * I've placed a picture of the label below. If anyone has a picture of a label signed by the others please share!

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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Quote Originally Posted by jochemgr View Post
    I've done a good bit of research, mainly on Google, found a few more details on some of the signatories. Updated list below. Biggest question-mark is Dennis A. Balin, I haven't been able to find any Gibsons signed by him, although I can find Flatirons. Also not sure who signed between 1981 and 1986, although I found a guitar signed by Jerry Rowland in 1984 so possibly he was still signing mandolins back then as well. I could be missing more but there were often multiple signatories at the same time so it's hard to spot the gaps.

    Lloyd Loar (1922-1924) *
    Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1975) *
    Aaron Cowles (1978-1984)
    Wilbur Fuller (1978)
    Richard Doan (1978-1980) *
    Herman Meints (1979-1980)
    Jerry Rowland (1981)
    Jim Triggs (1986-1989)
    Steve B. Carlson (1986-1993) *
    Dennis A. Balin (?)
    Phil Brug (1993-1994)
    Larry Barnwell (1994-1995) *
    Bruce D. Weber (1993-1997)
    Paul Schneider (1997-1998) *
    Simeon C. Daley (1998-2001)
    Charlie Derrington (1998-2004) *
    Danny Roberts (2001-2005) *
    Casey Q. Sullivan (2005-2007)
    David W. Harvey (2008-2014) *

    If followed by a * I've placed a picture of the label below. If anyone has a picture of a label signed by the others please share!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Roddick View Post
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Quote Originally Posted by Timbofood View Post
    Mr. Loar was the designer though not the "Man on the line" at the factory. And, in my mind there is the determining factor with respect to the value of the signature.
    I think, in real reality, the signature only matters if the mandolins produced under that signature are distinguished in quality. I don't think it matters, today, what the official position of the signer was. If mandolins signed by Count Dracula are consistently great, then the signature has value in identifying great Gibsons.

    Signatures by themselves,don't hold much water unless an improvement has been made.
    Yea. I would only add that this is true whether or not the signer had anything, in reality, to do with the improvement.


    The other thing that I can't help musing on is that Lloyd Loar would be almost entirely unknown, if not for Bill playing a signed Loar. Mandolins produced under his signature would still have a characteristic sound, but one wonders if that sound would even be appreciated today, if Bill hadn't chosen a Loar.

    I guess the point is that Bill didn't sit down and read the resume of the famous Loar, and try out various mandolins and confirm that the Loar signed instruments sounded how he wanted to sound, and then go with it.

    Bill may have been attracted to the sound of the Loar, but I doubt even that. The match up was probably pure happenstance. If Bill had built bluegrass around a different model mandolin with a different sound, Loar and his improvements would be the exclusive stuff of academics and company historians.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    The issue of who signed the labels and why is certainly an interesting one. I think at the onset - Loar's tenure - the signature label was a way of certifying the instrument as a quality product (not really saying who made it). After Loar's time, it was a mixture of marketing hype at some times and the luthier who made it at other times.

    Regarding the Meints label that Ken Roddick posted, here is a sharper image of it (Ken took another photo and I brightened it a bit in Photoshop). I can share with you - with Ken's permission - that this F5L was Wayne Benson's sidekick for a few years and it is an outstanding instrument. The tone bars in the Dick Doan-signed mandolin were rather severely worked on by some previous owner(s) and it was a comparatively poor sounding instrument. Ken left it at my shop one weekend and I decided to surprise him and rebuild the tone bars and tap tune it from the outside (without taking the instrument apart) - very much like building a ship in a bottle - a project I'd not necessarily want to do again. I'll see if I can urge Ken to tell the rest of the story, but it was a rather impressive change and I think the instrument sounds pretty great today. (The soundboards and backboards on both of these F5Ls came off my pattern carver.) …R

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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    From what I can see Loar's signature on the inside was probably more akin to having one of the later signature models that Gibson would produce that carried the artists name (Ricky Skaggs, etc.) on the outside.

    Musicians had been endorsing other musical instruments over the years, Fred Van Eps comes to mind. Lloyd Loar was Gibson's attempt to use a rock star from that era to their marketing advantage. It was an interesting experiment that they probably didn't profit greatly from until decades afterwards.
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Mr. Siminoff,

    On a side note, a mando buddy of mine has an F-5L from December of 1980 with Aaron Cowles signature. We were wondering if you indeed did the carving/tap-tuning on his mando.

    BTW: His 1980 F-5L was remarkably very similar to my Bozeman 1994 F-5L in appearance, feel, and sound!

    Thanks in advance for whatever you can share!

    Attachment 125012 Attachment 125013

    Attachment 125014 Attachment 125015

    Attachment 125016
    1994 Gibson F5L - Weber signed


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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Here's the pics inbedded...


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    1994 Gibson F5L - Weber signed


    "Mandolin brands are a guide, not gospel! I don't drink koolaid and that Emperor is naked!"
    "If you wanna get soul Baby, you gots to get the scroll..."
    "I would rather play music anyday for the beggar, the thief, and the fool!"
    "Perfection is not attainable; but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence" Vince Lombardi
    Playing Style: RockMonRoll Desperado Bluegrass Desperado YT Channel

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