I still don`t believe it...

[Tobin]

Which generation ignores the importance of tradition an history? The "babyboomers"? That generation (mine) has no shortage of faults, but I don't think ignoring tradition is one of them?

I was speaking of the younger generation today, thinking that the OP was talking about actual "youngsters". That was before I knew he considered those of us over-the-hill to still be youngsters.

Obviously, it's a mistake to make wide, sweeping generalizations about any group of people, especially on such broad factors as age. Exceptions exist everywhere, and it's never exactly clear whether generalizations actually apply to the majority of any group or not. But it has been my experience (which means it's just my opinion) that every generation seems to place a little less emphasis on history and tradition than the one before them.

Our world is changing fast. I don't know how young people today even keep up with what's going on around them, much less what happened before them. I remember being fascinated by history as a kid, and most boys around me were too. Today's kids don't really seem to care, as they are distracted by the plethora of digital technology, advertising, and marketing being pushed in their faces from birth. Western society has, for the last hundred years, been pushing an agenda of "new is better", and that mentality has gotten stronger with each generation. Society has always changed from one generation to the next, but the changes today are gaining momentum and happening faster, with more drastic differences. Unfortunately, tradition and respect for the past gets pushed aside in this bum-rush to redefine society. Tradition has become a dirty word. Even some of my generation are guilty of it. But today's younger generation who grew up in the digital world (the so-called millenials) seem to have a severe distaste for established principles and traditions. In my experience, of course. There are always exceptions.

[AlanN]

I was speaking of the younger generation today, thinking that the OP was talking about actual "youngsters". That was before I knew he considered those of us over-the-hill to still be youngsters.

Obviously, it's a mistake to make wide, sweeping generalizations about any group of people, especially on such broad factors as age. Exceptions exist everywhere, and it's never exactly clear whether generalizations actually apply to the majority of any group or not. But it has been my experience (which means it's just my opinion) that every generation seems to place a little less emphasis on history and tradition than the one before them.

Our world is changing fast. I don't know how young people today even keep up with what's going on around them, much less what happened before them. I remember being fascinated by history as a kid, and most boys around me were too. Today's kids don't really seem to care, as they are distracted by the plethora of digital technology, advertising, and marketing being pushed in their faces from birth. Western society has, for the last hundred years, been pushing an agenda of "new is better", and that mentality has gotten stronger with each generation. Society has always changed from one generation to the next, but the changes today are gaining momentum and happening faster, with more drastic differences. Unfortunately, tradition and respect for the past gets pushed aside in this bum-rush to redefine society. Tradition has become a dirty word. Even some of my generation are guilty of it. But today's younger generation who grew up in the digital world (the so-called millenials) seem to have a severe distaste for established principles and traditions. In my experience, of course. There are always exceptions.

No argument with all you said (very well, too). The 'new is better' has been in play in our mandolin world before. I remember a quote from one of the early generation pickers that the Loars were not so coveted back then, that they were considered old and used and there were some new, shiny, spiffy mandolins being made then that put those old mothballs to shame, in the looks department. The *antiques* craze hadn't happened yet.

[Tobin]

The *antiques* craze hadn't happened yet.

Funny that you mention the antiques craze. Though I'm a professional engineer by day, my wife and I deal antiques as well. That market has been awful strange. One day, a particular item is undesirable, and the next, it's a hot commodity. Certain designer shows, as well as shows like American Pickers tend to lead to wild fads. It's kind of a shame that the public at large doesn't really appreciate antiques simply for their history and provenance, but because they can be repurposed into something "new and better" than the original. Every time I see an old quality-made piece of furniture that's been painted and distressed ala "shabby chic", I want to gag.

But it goes hand-in-hand with what you're talking about. Media, popular culture, and fads will drive a certain segment of the population towards appreciating something that's old, even if it's only a short-lived surge in popularity. There is only a very small segment of society who has always held the old things to be of worth simply because of their history and inherent character. I think it's as true of antiques/collectibles as it is of music and ideas.

[Jeff Mando]

It's kind of a shame that the public at large doesn't really appreciate antiques simply for their history and provenance, but because they can be repurposed into something "new and better" than the original. Every time I see an old quality-made piece of furniture that's been painted and distressed ala "shabby chic", I want to gag..

Our local public library had a book sale recently--keep in mind hardbacks were only 10 cents each, to start with. One of the volunteers comes up and shows me a little endtable she made by stacking books together with glue and putting a glass top on it--repurposed--like you say. She adds, if you don't want the titles to show, you can just spray paint the whole thing.....bless her heart....

[Bernie Daniel]

No argument with all you said (very well, too). The 'new is better' has been in play in our mandolin world before. I remember a quote from one of the early generation pickers that the Loars were not so coveted back then, that they were considered old and used and there were some new, shiny, spiffy mandolins being made then that put those old mothballs to shame, in the looks department. The *antiques* craze hadn't happened yet.

You might be referring to Frank Wakefield's comments on the Mandolin Extravaganza CD?

[AlanN]

Funny, Frank and them came to mind, he got his Loar in 1960, I think.

[Bernie Daniel]

Funny that you mention the antiques craze. Though I'm a professional engineer by day, my wife and I deal antiques as well. That market has been awful strange. One day, a particular item is undesirable, and the next, it's a hot commodity. Certain designer shows, as well as shows like American Pickers tend to lead to wild fads. It's kind of a shame that the public at large doesn't really appreciate antiques simply for their history and provenance, but because they can be repurposed into something "new and better" than the original. Every time I see an old quality-made piece of furniture that's been painted and distressed ala "shabby chic", I want to gag.

But it goes hand-in-hand with what you're talking about. Media, popular culture, and fads will drive a certain segment of the population towards appreciating something that's old, even if it's only a short-lived surge in popularity. There is only a very small segment of society who has always held the old things to be of worth simply because of their history and inherent character. I think it's as true of antiques/collectibles as it is of music and ideas.

Yes all generalizations are always wrong!

I think that in the USA (and probably other Western countries) some of our young people are the best educated and maybe the most technically capable individuals on the planet -- but for a much larger percentage the exact opposite it the case -- and that is a huge problem for everyone. I think the one general critique that can be leveled against today's "young" is that they do not see the value in knowing history so learning it is not a priority for them -- keeping up with the latest events is. Seems like the OP was saying the same thing when it comes to bluegrass music?

[stevedenver]

....
About the part of this discussion that Journey Bear has posted where he said that different forms of music have evolved from rock and roll, he names some like Bee-Bop etc, well when they changed the style of music from one to the other they also changed the name of the kind of music they were playing , which is not the case with country and bluegrass, they both have changed but the bands still call them selves "Country" and or "Bluegrass", at one time some called it "country pop" and some called it "progressive bluegrass", OK so the names were changed, why did they come back to calling them by their old names? I don`t know but I do know that 75% of what I hear on bluegrass radio isn`t bluegrass by my definition....And even less of the country music is country, again in my opinion....As Ivan said if you don`t like it don`t listen to it, well I don`t, when I am driving and listening to the radio if some of this "trash" comes on I turn the radio down to where I can`t hear it, most of the time I am playing CD`s or tapes of hard core traditional bluegrass (Thanks Alan), Alan is correct, I didn`t expect this thread to get people this excited, but I thank all of you for your input and hope that some of the posts have made some of us learn something from it...

.....Willie

With respect, seems to me it used to be called as well, very commonly , country and western, and hillbilly, round about the 30s to well into the 50s. Maybe not in the place of origin, but certainly in mass media. Those old barn dance radio and tv shows, and the like.

And I don't know if you've been in a music store recently, but R and B doesn't mean rhythm and blues as we know it anymore either. Point, there has been a huge effort on the part of music marketers to create all sorts of niches.

I was recently accused of playing hillbilly music, (don't have overalls or bare feet) while attending a song circle of non- BG players, folkies and rock singers. To say the least, I was mildly offended, because, I am far from strictly traditional. must have been the leetle geetar. I did, after Doolie, I Fall on my Knees, and Old Home Place, rousing versions, however, of locomotive breath, sunshine of your love, and take five to set them straight. LOL

As for Lloyd Allaire,
I'd be willing to venture, that on the jazz guitar cite, also moderately laden with fogies
a large number wouldn't know him either, despite the L5 connection. Point being, its a more esoteric piece of information, known to mando lovers, and not necessarily to mando players.

[FLATROCK HILL]

Lots of us drive and don't know who invented the automatic transmission.
I forgive those Bluegrass players who don't know who Lloyd Loar was.
What baffles me is (the rare occasion) when I meet a mandolin enthusiast who doesn't know about the Cafe.

[Douglas McMullin]

Lots of us drive and don't know who invented the automatic transmission.
I forgive those Bluegrass players who don't know who Lloyd Loar was.
What baffles me is (the rare occasion) when I meet a mandolin enthusiast who doesn't know about the Cafe.

It kind of works out because Lloyd Loar didn't know what bluegrass was, but I think he may have been a very early cafe member.

[Petrus]

Monroe had Dave "Stringbean" Akeman in the Blue Grass Boys playing banjo for three years before he hired Scruggs; apparently "String," who did comedy as well banjo (and was definitely in the background on the only recording session he did with Monroe), departed to form a comedy duo -- Blue Grass Boys article -- and Scruggs was his replacement.

Hmm. Didn't know that! The story I read was that Monroe was opposed to getting a (new?) banjo player on board, but maybe the two stories aren't in conflict, since it was the instrument's vaguely comedic associations that made him reluctant; maybe he didn't want another Stringbean act. Obviously Scruggs' masterful playing and very different style convinced him otherwise. Thanks for the correction.

[Petrus]

These fellows were very interested in learning bluegrass and I just found it hard to believe that they had not heard of Lloyd Loar, what brought that about was I was playing my KY KM-900 and it put those other Ky`s that they were playing to shame and they wanted to know how I got that sound out of it when they couldn`t so I explained to them that it is claimed to be a pretty exact copy of the one and only Griffin A-5 that Gibson made and was signed by Lloyd Loar, they said "Who", that is what knocked my socks off...

Well, I understand that totally, since I hadn't hear of Lloyd Loar either until I got interested in the mandolin a few years ago. I'd heard of the big name musicians (Monroe, et al), and of Gibson, and automatically attributed the modern mandolin shape to Gibson. I even assumed (wrongly!) that the modern "The Loar" mandolins had some connection to either Gibson and/or Loar, only to find out a few months ago that there is no connection at all. (I had assumed that "Loar" would have been copyrighted by the Gibson company.) I'm also getting the impression that "signed by Lloyd Loar" doesn't mean personally autographed, just that his name is on the label (am I right about that?)

Sometimes I feel like one of those people that proudly bring a "Stradivarius" violin into a pawn shop only to be told that thousands of cheap imitations have the name "Stradivarius" on the label; it just means they're designed after the pattern of Stradivarius.

OK so the names were changed, why did they come back to calling them by their old names? I don`t know but I do know that 75% of what I hear on bluegrass radio isn`t bluegrass by my definition....And even less of the country music is country, again in my opinion...

"Country" is a huge category that covers a lot of ground, sort of like "folk." (I've read Hank Williams referred to as a "folk singer" in some texts, iirc, and I occasionally find Townes Van Zandt CDs in the folk section of the library.) I'm pretty sure "bluegrass" derives from the name of Monroe's original band, who happened to be (mostly) from Kentucky, thus The Bluegrass Boys. From what I've read, Monroe himself was ambivalent about the term, sometimes favoring "bluegrass," at other times favoring "country," depending on the context. I suspect a lot of that had to do with getting (or not getting) radio airplay based on whichever term was most favorable at a given time and place.

21st century "country" is a big category too which goes all the way from country-pop pablum to what I would consider "real country" or at least country-rock. In this category I'd put Steve Earle and Lydia Loveless, for instance, just to name two who I've seen live recently. (Is Sarah Jarosz country or folk? I dunno! Are the Carolina Chocolate Drops old-timey retrograss?) Is the artist wearing a cowboy hat or a trucker cap on the album photo? Generally I get suspicious of any modern country singers who wear cowboy hats!

[Ivan Kelsall]

Bill Monroe had 'Stringbean' in his band but didn't really think his 'sound' fitted in with his idea of what he was looking for in a 'band sound'. Of course he knew nothing of Earl Scruggs until he was told about him & agreed to listen to him play. It was Bill's fiddler at the time,Jimmy Shumate,who got bill to listen to Earl,the rest as they say,is history. Earl joined Bill's band,played at the Grand Ole Opry & totally blew the audience away with his "fancy banjo pickin'" as George D.Hay (the Solemn Old Judge) called it. Bluegrass music 'as a genre' never looked back. Bill Monroe is rightly called the 'Father of Bluegrass Music',but Earl Scruggs was the engine that got it off the ground. What a 'coming together' that was !!!!!,
Ivan

[Ellen T]

Yes all generalizations are always wrong!

I think that in the USA (and probably other Western countries) some of our young people are the best educated and maybe the most technically capable individuals on the planet -- but for a much larger percentage the exact opposite it the case -- and that is a huge problem for everyone. I think the one general critique that can be leveled against today's "young" is that they do not see the value in knowing history so learning it is not a priority for them -- keeping up with the latest events is. Seems like the OP was saying the same thing when it comes to bluegrass music?

If it's any consolation, my son got his degree in history, and now works in a library. Most of the young people I worked with also had history degrees (or in related fields), but that was in a history museum and library, which sorta skews things, I guess. But it shows that there is, occasionally, some hope.

I must say, from my vantage point of over six decades, that when I see or hear the phrase "young people today," I want to slap the crap out of someone. I hated that phrase when I was young, and I still hate it today.

So-called traditional bluegrass is great. So is a lot of the newgrass (and other xxxgrass) currently being produced. There is room for all of it, as long as it is well-done. And there is much musical life beyond bluegrass, with and without mandolins.

Not being a BG player, I had never heard of Loar until I joined this board. Now I've heard of him, but I can't say I really care. I do not consider myself some keeper of a sacred flame, I just like to play my damn mandolin.

[dang]

Most people rave over Tony Rice`s guitar playing and Dale Reno`s mandolin playing but I have never been able to tell what they are playing except on very few songs but if that is their style and it gets them gigs so be it...NO I DON`T WANT TO PLAY LIKE THEM EITHER....

Wait, I thought Tony Rice, Bela Fleck and Sam Bush were the quintessential bluegrass traditionalists? There were bluegrass bands before New Grass Revival??

Why would anyone want a traditional bluegrass band these days anyway, do they have too much money???

I think after all these years we can stop with the poor imitations and let Bill's work stand on it's own... Unless you have the talent to make it one of those fancy new versions that don't sound like the original.

(Note: At least one of the sentences above is sarcasm )

[barney 59]

A genre is like a country - you need the tourist invasion for its benefits but you also need to maintain your own identity, i.e. places where the tourists don't go. It's also no use arguing - if your playing doesn't show the difference between original and plastic surrogate, words never will.

Invasion is a phenomenon you get in every genre, btw., not just in BG. In one of our Irish sessions a few weeks ago, a guy came in with a guitar, sat on a bar stool right behind me and played some arpeggio-up-and-down-the scale accompaniment right into my ear, very alien and distracting. Later he tried to be funny and told a joke "You know why the Irish all emigrated? They could no longer stand the music." I packed and got up and he laughed "you're leaving because of me, aren't you?" It's a good thing I can count to one hundred, slowly, quietly, albeit steaming slightly.

I know that guy! Probably a bar with a shamrock on the door -told an anti Irish joke and played music he knew would upset the patrons. He came into the bar because he wanted to have someone punch him in the face, Hey, their out there! You missed your shot!

[Bertram Henze]

He came into the bar because he wanted to have someone punch him in the face

I have no better explanation either, but I don't believe in assisted suicide

Irish sessions have a tradition of cooly and cunningly hiding any true feedback - you'll get feedback alright, but you should never believe it, because it might be intentionally right, or wrong, or not. The reason behind this is that everybody is aware of the pitfalls of subjective perception: the perpetrator who ruined the tuneset in your ears may have had perfect fun for himself and even for the majority of the others, so you may end up as the only curmudgeon if you say a word.

[Timbofood]

So,who did invent the automatic transmission? I drive a stick.

[allenhopkins]

...I drive a stick.

I get slightly better results by driving a car; costs more for gas, though.

[Timbofood]

But, I'm not in much of a hurry.

[Bertram Henze]

I drive a stick.

yes but is it comfortable?

[Fretbear]

Yes it was fiddler Jimmy Shumate who secured Earl his audition with WSM (and Lester Flatt) but it was FLATT who reportedly had more than enough of String's banjo style to the point where he was not really interested in auditioning any banjo player, as he felt that they all disturbed the finely tuned timing that he and Monroe were percolating. His mind must have gotten blown that day.

[DataNick]

And don't forget that Mr. Monroe had already heard that banjo picking style and was on the look-out for it again. Don Reno had been set to join the Bluegrass Boys a couple of years earlier but WWII came a callin'...

[Amanda Gregg]

29-year-old here. I feel the need to say a few words in defense of my generation (or at least a clarification). On average, my Millennial peers, at least the ones who can REALLY play, tend to be rather traditionally-minded, listening to Monroe, Flatt, Scruggs, Stanleys, even seeking out rare and live recordings. I think traditional bluegrass interest is actually bi-modal: Millennials and folks who graduated college before the Beetles appeared on Ed Sullivan seem especially dedicated to traditional forms.

My band, for example, consists of me and 4 male 50 and 60-something contractors. The guys want to play Grateful Dead songs, I want to play Master of Bluegrass. Go figure.

[journeybear]

So, do you meet in the middle, with "Friend Of The Devil?" I wish we had an eye roll smiley.

You know ,you could remind them that Grateful Dead have done some bluegrass songs, notably "Sitting On Top Of The World," but also "Dark Hollow," "In The Pines," and similar or related songs, such as "Goin' Down The Road Feeling Bad, " "Deep Elem Blues," "Pretty Peggy-O," "Banks Of The Ohio," and "Barbara Allen." Plenty of comon ground.