Vintage Epiphone Mandolin

[allenhopkins]

Here's a somewhat hyped historical article on Epiphone. Realize it's from the current owners of the name -- Gibson Inc. -- and they're naturally trying to link their current line of Epiphone-labeled Asian imports, to the Stathopoulo-founded company that was one of their strongest competitors in the arch-top guitar market through the 1930's and '40's. So the "Epiphone passion for excellence" may or may not extend to current Epiphone instruments, IMHO.

Gibson bought Epiphone in 1957, and for 13 years built instruments labeled "Epiphone" in the Kalamazoo facility; basically, Epiphone became a quasi-separate Gibson line. There were equivalent models: the Epiphone Texan flat-top guitar was a Gibson J-50 with a different label and headstock, e.g.. In 1970 Gibson shifted Epiphone production to Japan, and Epiphones have been Asian-made since, as far as I know.

Gibson's been tweaking the Epiphone line frequently in recent years, and Epiphones are not just cheaper Asian-made versions of Gibson models now. However, there are still many Epiphone "copies" of US-made Gibson guitars being cataloged; Epiphone has almost every Gibson Les Paul model covered.

[Masterbilt]

Late to the discussion since I am currently travelling ... Some of you know that I am working on a history research project on vintage Epiphone instruments (pre-1957 era), and recently launched this website: http://wiedler.ch/nyepireg/

I would love to document this historically interesting Windsor model in my Registry Database (which currently includes >2500 instruments): http://wiedler.ch/nyepireg/database.html

Here some info about the mandos:
http://wiedler.ch/nyepireg/models.html#MandoAc

The serial number and type of label would be very interesting to see. To my knowledge the NY Epiphone company stopped producing f-hole mandolins around 1944. As JohnL has pointed out correctly, the headstock logo on the Windsor in this thread looks indeed later. Looking forward to more info!

Felix

[Jim Garber]

Epiphone's later reputation was due to its devaluation when Gibson bought them out. They were one of Gibson's big competitors esp in the archtop guitar market but by the 1950s were losing it. Gibson bought them out and made Epiphone their 2nd level brand. Later they used it for their imports. Some of the Gibson-made Epiphones are excellent guitars. A friend has a nice flattop, an Epiphone Texan, which is every bit as good as a 1950s Gibson flattop.

[Joey Anchors]

My holly grail mandolin is to find an Epiphone two-point some day. I just love that design so much!

[gregpost]

This instrument was sold to George Gruhn. We could not find a serial number/label. He also bought the Vega mandolin and some other instruments.

[johnl]

Now listed at Gruhn's:
http://guitars.com/inventory/mf8439-...iphone-windsor
I'm curious how they decided on ca 1940.

[Joey Anchors]

Really wish I had the money to buy that!!

[Jim Garber]

Ok, ok... I will preface this by saying that I love Epiphones and root for them always. I have a wonderful oddball Epiphone Spartan archtop guitar that is wonderful and I have owned a few other instruments over the years.

However... this may be some rare instrument but unless it sounds and plays up to that $15,000 value, personally I am not attracted to it visually. The design seems off-balance to me. Maybe I am so used to the proportions of a Gibson F5 but to me it looks odd. The headtstock is a scaled down one off their Emperor guitar. The scrollwork looks sloppy and both the scroll and the treble point look stunted to my eye. The wood on the back is slab sawn maple.

I know...I know... sour grapes. Of course, if I found one at my local yard sale, you know I would buy it in a flash. However, for that price, not so sure. I hope someone gets down there and plays it and reports back honestly. I wish I could.

[Jeff Mando]

I would like to hear a sound report, also. If Gruhn says it is one of three he has seen in 50 years, that is saying something to think of all the instruments that have passed through his shop. I actually like the design, if you can get an F-5 out of one's mind....if it has a 15K sound, it could be a blue chip investment! (sorry, about that...) You know, a great pick, I mean, err choice!

[gregpost]

I wish I could have kept it and taken up mandolin(wasn't mines to keep). Now I have an interest in an instrument that to be honest I never paid much attention to.

[Jim Garber]

If Gruhn says it is one of three he has seen in 50 years, that is saying something to think of all the instruments that have passed through his shop. I actually like the design, if you can get an F-5 out of one's mind.

Rarity doesn't mean much if no one will pay the "rare" price. Gruhn has seen only three but I have (I believe) five examples in my files.

My prediction is that it will sit around there for quite a while and sell for under $10k. My estimate for value calculating the rarity factor would be more like $7500.

As for the design, if it were not a vintage instrument and appeared with no name on eBay we would prob make fun of the open scroll and the stumpy points. Just sayin'...

[BradKlein]

That's a pretty severe appraisal, Jim. A lot depends on how this instrument sounds, but there's no arguing with the fact that it's a rare bird from one of the very finest makers of American musical instruments, particularly of carved top instruments in this period. There's really no competition aside from Gibson. And there are plenty of Epi collectors our there. The price seems realistic to me.

As for the aesthetics of the design… I certainly wouldn't throw it out of the jam!

[Jim Garber]

Of course, this is only my humblest of opinions.

As I noted in my first post above, I happen to love Epiphone instruments. My favorite arch top guitar is my lowly Epiphone Spartan. However, Epiphone has been notoriously underrated and undervalued in the vintage market as compared to Gibson over the years. There is also a reason for rarity which may be that these instruments just did not sell at the time.

Also, let's put it in perspective. Gruhn is asking the equivalent of the price for a D'Angelico mandolin. It was made in a factory and unless I am not seeing things properly, the workmanship leaves something to be desired. I would still love to hear what someone who has played it thinks. BTW I am attracted to it as an ugly duckling -- after all you have seen the oddballs I have purchased over the years -- but not for that price.

[Jeff Mando]

Great points, Jim. My point about Gruhn, beside being a known expert for the last 50+ years, has been in a position to see "the best of the best." I also, see a bunch of instruments every week, but they don't have quality stuff like this at the local pawn shop and flea markets I attend! (when they do, I try to buy them!) My other point about Gruhn, is that he has only seen three in a time period where he has probably seen 50-100 signed Loars (I'm guessing on the number, but gives perspective to what he is saying concerning rarity).

As far as price, sure, Gruhn is in a position to "set" the price and has been for years. He also brokered one of Buddy Holly's amplifiers a few years ago, a Magnatone, his asking price was over $100,000. I don't know what it actually sold for, but it was an attention getter, for sure. OTOH, I had the same model amp and I got $1500 for mine.....(not owned by BH). There is a famous story overhead by a fly on the wall at Gruhn's when Scott Chinery was spending mega-bucks acquiring his collection--he also wanted the "best of the best". Gruhn quoted him $50,000 on an instrument that normally went for less than that. Chinery, said, fine, I'll paid it if you can justify your price! Gruhn supposedly became indignant and said, I don't have to justify my price!

It is anybody's guess what the mandolin will bring, but I'm sure somebody will have to have it. I saw a 40's Epiphone mandolin once at a guitar show and wished I had bought it. Just something cool and a little different from the "normal" stuff one sees.

[Jim Garber]

Yes, George can certainly set the price but that doesn't mean that he will get anywhere near that price unless there is a collector of Epiphone instruments out there with very deep pockets. My guess is that he is trawling for the right price -- after all, if he has seen only three of them (and two of them not for sale) then how to determine the price. We will see.

[BBarton]

Not mentioned and perhaps less known by many is that Epiphone and before that House of Stathopoulo were huge in the banjo business in the teens and twenties, competing with Gibson, Bacon & Day, Lange Paramount, Vega and the like during the big-band jazz banjo heyday. The Recording series produced from about 1926 to the mid-thirties were great banjos, which because of their design, solid construction and sound are now much desired by Irish trad players.

[Masterbilt]

Harry West's Epiphone Windsor is offered for sale by his daughter: http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/87044
And the example from this thread still at Gruhn's: http://guitars.com/inventory/mf8439-...iphone-windsor
So currently two on the market...
Felix

[Jim Garber]

Interesting to now see two of these and to see the Gruhn one still there for $15k. Now, that one looks like a bargain. Has anyone here actually played great one? Surely someone has been down to Gruhn's since this thread started.

BTW that Wilkanowski guitar she is also offering is about the fanciest I have ever seen. I never played one tho.

[Jim Garber]

My prediction is that it will sit around there for quite a while and sell for under $10k. My estimate for value calculating the rarity factor would be more like $7500.

Ah, nice to return to this thread. So, the Windsor at $15,000 at Gruhn's is approaching it's 2-year anniversary.

[Br1ck]

Epiphone's later reputation was due to its devaluation when Gibson bought them out. They were one of Gibson's big competitors esp in the archtop guitar market but by the 1950s were losing it. Gibson bought them out and made Epiphone their 2nd level brand. Later they used it for their imports. Some of the Gibson-made Epiphones are excellent guitars. A friend has a nice flattop, an Epiphone Texan, which is every bit as good as a 1950s Gibson flattop.

I have a 65 Epiphone Texan that will always be with me. Paid every bit as much as a comparable Gibson J 45. It smoked the four sixties J 45s in the store at the same time.
Basically it is a J 45 body with a long scale neck. The arch top guitars are first rate too. Really a shame Gibson turned the name into their import line.

[soliver]

This has been a very interesting thread to read through. I have always only ever know Epiphone for their lackluster reputation of the last 20 years and had no idea that they had a foundation in such fine quality.

Cool stuff for sure!

[Br1ck]

Gibson has just introduced a line of Epiphone arch tops trying to recreate the Epi glory years. They should pay Dave Rawlings royalties.

[Joey Anchors]

If I had the cash I would buy this Epiphone in a heartbeat!

[Jim Garber]

If I had the cash I would buy this Epiphone in a heartbeat!

Have you (or anyone else) actually played this? I sincerely want to hear form someone that it is an amazing instrument! I cannot believe after all this time that no one of us here has tried this mandolin.

I love Epiphones especially since they were always the underdog compared to Gibson. OTOH I had an opportunity to buy an Epiphone Strand years ago and it just didn't quite cut it for tone or playabiity.

[Joey Anchors]

Have you (or anyone else) actually played this? I sincerely want to hear form someone that it is an amazing instrument! I cannot believe after all this time that no one of us here has tried this mandolin.

I love Epiphones especially since they were always the underdog compared to Gibson. OTOH I had an opportunity to buy an Epiphone Strand years ago and it just didn't quite cut it for tone or playabiity.

Sadly I haven't played it. It's a wish list dream for me.