Steve Gilchrist on Gibson and Varnish...........

[sgrexa]

I had a question I had wanted to ask Steve for a while and I am so thankful that he took the time to answer it as thoroughly as he did. I believe he has studied this subject and provides as much detail as we will likely ever know. I also included a snapshot of his work in progress in August of 2014. Hope you enjoy!

Sean

Based on your experience with Gibson mandolins, do you believe the teens and early 20s lesser models (As through F2s) had a simple shellac based spirit varnish finish applied over analine dyes and that the A4s, F4s and F5s had some type of oil varnish with a French polished spirit varnish topcoat? Do you have any opinions as to how these finishes were applied? Also, can you please comment on the finishes used throughout your career and how you came upon settling on your current finish? Did you ever experiment with oil varnish? Any details you can provide concerning your current and historical finish formulations, dyes used, and changes in application would be greatly appreciated.

Steve Gilchrist- "Life and mandolins have been very demanding around here!

Firstly, it is difficult to be definitive about what materials and processes have been used in the past as some information poses more questions then it answers, but by studying good original finish examples, there is clear information and inspiration to be learnt from those beautiful old instruments.

I used nitrocellulose lacquer for the first couple of years but changed to spirit varnish in 1980 (serial number #81 I think) when I first started working at Gruhn Guitars and being around great old instruments. I make my own varnish and have experimented with different recipes over the years, but as a base it has always been shellac in the form of fresh blonde flakes or raw seedlac tears, partly sprayed and french polished. I hand stain the raw wood with water stain like the old process and spray the first few coats of varnish and then continue by thinly applying it by french polishing. I have experimented with spar varnish, a synthetic oil varnish similar to what they may have been using in the 20's, but it felt like there was too much elastic finish on there for what was needed. My main philosophy on finishing is to keep the finish down in the wood and as thin and unrestrictive as possible. Something that really struck me about Cremonese fiddles I have had the opportunity to look at.

From my observations and work, up until the 20's Gibson used spirit varnish on all models until they started introducing the "new finish" - nitrocellulose lacquer (see catalogue pic attached) on a few of the lower models from about 1918 when Lloyd Loar first joined the company until they changed to using it (nitro) on everything by mid 1925, eg. the opaque white top A3, L3 and "sheraton brown" A models of the early 20's. All staining was done with water based aniline dyes directly on the wood. During this period, all bindings were scraped clean of varnish (and stain) at the very end of the finishing process, leaving the bindings with a raw celluloid surface. From the early 20's on, the bindings were scraped after staining and sealer coat, and the lighter coloured top coats were applied over the scraped bindings. The spirit varnish would have been a combination of shellac (blonde or orange/seedlac) and smaller amounts of alcohol (spirit) soluble tree resins such as sandarac, mastic, copal, etc., pretty much the same as Behlen's Violin Varnish available from suppliers today. When I have used this product in the past, it has aged exactly like the teens Gibson era with that beautiful fine eggshell crazing patina.

It certainly appears Gibson did start using some kind of an oil varnish as the main body coats on their top models in the early 20's after first sealing the water stained surface with dark TN shellac, applying the oil finish and then applying the shellac top glaze coat (spirit varnish). Almost every Loar period instruments with its original finish intact I have looking inside of shows evidence to some degree of these materials dripped onto the inside of the back or runs from the underside of the 'F' holes. See pics attached. (WARNING! Images may depict extreme shellac and yellow water stain that may disturb some purists). The stain and dark shellac coats were obviously not sprayed on, but ragged (stain) and brushed on, not too cautiously. The main body coats (oil) most likely were brushed on as evidenced by sags you often see on those finishes. The top glaze coat looks like it was french polished with occasional evidence it was then polished with pumice & rottenstone, as violins are still.

When Charlie Derrington first joined Gibson, he sent me fragments of the two distinct layers of finish he had scraped off a Loar F5 (?!). I sent them to an industrial chemist for analysis who had an interest in violin varnish. At the time, I couldn't afford the cost of a full spectrum analysis (and confusing interpretation back into luthier speak), but he did give a brief opinion from his initial testing and experience with violin varnish. He thought the body coats were likely some type of oil varnish (phenolic resin most likely as it was the first synthetic oil resin first formulated around that time) and the other fragments contained shellac (seedlac and TN shellac) which would have come from the dark sealer coat and clearer top coats.

I often think about why Gibson would have changed from a total spirit varnish finish in the teens to an oil/spirit combination in the 20's, considering how beautiful the finish was on those old teens F4's for example. Was it to avoid the scraped binding look? (bindings actually ended up being quite messy with their shellac top glaze in the early 20's). Was it for a more durable finish, or was it just to "sex-up" their promotional material for a higher end violin-like quality association. (see attached catalogue scan) This is scanned from the finish page of the 1921 Gibson M catalogue (but the same paragraph was also in their 1917 J catalogue and probably in the years between). With it is an extract from Ed Heron-Allen's book "Violin Making-As It Was And Is", published in London, England in 1885, and as you can read, it is almost verbatim. Were Gibson instruments really being varnished..."under the supervision of one who has made a life study of varnish as used on the violin"...(Mr.Heron-Allen was English (?) and probably well into his 60's by 1917), or did they just read his book and simple plagiarize this paragraph? The Heron-Allen book goes on to describe his suggested varnish as linseed oil based and taking many months to apply and cure. Clearly not practical in a production situation, so substituting the slow drying linseed oil for the new faster drying synthetic phenolic resin oil finish may have seemed like a good alternative while retaining the violin association?

That's my two cents worth. I first tried to introduce this discussion over 20 years ago at an A.S.I.A. conference, but nobody seemed interested in anything but lacquer back then. Glad y'all like varnish now

That's all I know. My brain hurts now and I need to go and varnish a large batch of mandolins and guitars.

Best Regards,
Steve

[Dave LaBoone]

Wow! Thanks for sharing, and thanks to Steve for such an lengthy and thorough response!

[re simmers]

That is a real education!!! I mess with different stains and finishes, trying to restore antiques, but it will take a while to absorb all that.
Makes me wish even more that I had the money to buy a Gilchrist.

Bob

[sgrexa]

I admit I had to read through this three times or so to even begin to digest the content. This is the first time I have ever heard that the white top A3s and sheraton brown As were finished in nitro as early as 1918 when Lloyd first arrived.

Sean

[sgrexa]

For clarification, TN shellac is not Tennessee made shellac, it stands for "truly native":

"Most woodworkers think of shellac as a liquid bought at a paint store. What many do not realize is that shellac is traded and sold initially as dry flakes. Those who have used shellac from a paint store probably used a type known as #1 Orange, which is the most commonly traded flake used as a wood finish. This is but one of the many grades of shellac available and it is dissolved in ethanol which is the most widely used solvent for shellac. The many varieties of shellac resin differ primarily in color as well as properties. The type of tree, climate conditions, the region where harvested, and the time of year harvested all play a role in determining the different colors and grades of shellac.

The most expensive varieties of shellac are Kusmi and Golden Bysacki and these are chemically refined to extract adulterants such as rosin and wax into golden pale flakes sold under a variety of names like Behlen's "Super-Blonde" or Kusmi Superior or Bysacki Golden. When dissolved in ethanol, these flakes produce a very transparent gold finish. The least expensive grade of shellac is traded as TN which stands for "truly native" in this country. This type of shellac is processed from the raw sticklac by hand in India. Other grades of shellac which can be considered intermediates are #1 Lemon or Lemon-Orange all of which naturally contain wax. Some suppliers sell unrefined forms of shellac known as Buttonlac or Seedlac. These grades need to be strained after dissolving in ethanol to remove foreign matter. Seedlac is also further refined by bleaching and wax removal to produce the white-shellac sometimes still sold in paint stores. The dry flake form of this product is called "bone-dry" shellac flake and is widely used in applications where the natural orange color of shellac would be undesirable (such as hats).

The shellac industry grades shellac by many variables, but the two most common are wax content and color. The most expensive shellacs, Kusmi and Bysacki, have virtually no wax content (less than 1%) and a high color number 70-80. The lower grades of shellac - TN, orange lemon and buttonlac - have a wax content from 3%-5% and color numbers of 20 or lower.

Mail-order companies that sell dry shellac flakes classify it according to color (pale, dark, white, Super-blonde) and sometimes by grade (#1 Orange, Button-lac, Seedlac, etc.). Other characteristics to consider is whether it has been de-waxed. Dewaxed shellacs have much better transparency and moisture resistance. (The wax in the shellac reduces the clarity of the finish and also reduces the molecular weight of the shellac resin, making it less resistant to water). On the downside, dewaxed shellacs have a much shorter shelf life after mixing with alcohol (less than 6 months).

[Randi Gormley]

I never considered myself a finish nerd, but I found this fascinating and appreciate the information and expertise. Thanks, guys!

[Jeff Hildreth]

Good stuff, thanks .

[High Lonesome Valley]

For clarification, TN shellac is not Tennessee made shellac, it stands for "truly native":

"Most woodworkers think of shellac as a liquid bought at a paint store. What many do not realize is that shellac is traded and sold initially as dry flakes.

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/inde...shell-varnish/

Anyone experimented with crustacean shells? Was going to try it, but already had shellac flakes.

[billhay4]

Glad y'all like varnish now

Steve must be from Southern Australia.
Bill

[mandroid]

odds are good .. many fewer people live on the Tropical North shore..

[Dobe]

So much to learn, so little time. Here's a cool vid on lac production I found from some other thread:

[OldGus]

Aren't the lacquer Ferns some of the best?

[sgrexa]

That video was very cool, thank you! Two things that came to mind. One, the guy cutting the sticklac needs to sharpen his blade and two, this stuff seems like it should cost way more than $27 / lb!!? How many mandolins can you finish with 1 lb of shellac flakes?

Sean

[sgrexa]

Aren't the lacquer Ferns some of the best?

Sure they are, but to me, the old varnished Gibsons just seem so perfect. I love old varnish, the feel and the look of how it ages. I don't think the drying times of spirit varnish vs. lacquer are all that different. I think cost and ease of application is what ultimately made Gibson switch to nitrocellulose.

Sean

[OldGus]

Varnish is nice and I think it helps the tone a little but in my experience I had one with pure spirit varnish and the bridge got stuck to the top and I pulled a bit of the finish off when it was removed. This was a while after I got it, I think to fully cure it takes about five years. I know they stopped making the Kentuckies with varnish because it tended to melt a bit in the case during shipment.

[sgrexa]

I am curious as to how much shellac is used to finish a single mandolin?

Sean

[Mike Steadfast-Ward]

Wow! Thanks for sharing, and thanks to Steve for such an lengthy and thorough response!

Yes, I concur. Thanks greatly for this educational article and the thread. It's more than I'll ever need practically.
Although it gives me better knowledge of finishes and techniques. It all adds to the experience.

[Pete Jenner]

That's gold Sean. Cheers.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Hope you don't mind me reviving this thread.
In the OP, Steve Gilchrist observes (wonderful that he shares all his valuable insight!) that both the 1917 J and the 1921 Gibson Catalogue M mention the "new finishes", white and sharaton brown. Is it really possible that the "new finishes" were nitro? Although Dupont had a background with nitrocellulose, since it had been making it for explosives since the 1890s, the company's scientists first made a fast-drying lacquer from nitrocellulose in 1920 (patented in 1922), other colors (besides black) not earlier than 1923. I wonder how Gibson really achieved their white and sharaton brown.

I also found it most interesting that Steve's own spirit varnishes may be (acoustically) superior to the Loar F5s' phenolic resin finishes ("too much elastic finish on there for what was needed"). Hence, whenever Steve refinishes a Loar, he probably improves it. Any thoughts on that?

[mtucker]

Hope you don't mind me reviving this thread.
In the OP, Steve Gilchrist observes (wonderful that he shares all his valuable insight!) that both the 1917 J and the 1921 Gibson Catalogue M mention the "new finishes", white and sharaton brown. Is it really possible that the "new finishes" were nitro? Although Dupont had a background with nitrocellulose, since it had been making it for explosives since the 1890s, the company's scientists first made a fast-drying lacquer from nitrocellulose in 1920 (patented in 1922), other colors (besides black) not earlier than 1923. I wonder how Gibson really achieved their white and sharaton brown.

Perhaps I can set the record straight on color during early automotive production since this one is clearly in the old wheelhouse:

From early 1900's to say mid-teens, Ford produced Model T's in several colors, dark blue, red, green, gray...and yes, even in white! Nothing in black though. The drying times were very long, slowing production which tweaked Henry ...so from about 1917 to 1923, Ford decided it would only be black. Why you ask? … cheapest paint to purchase and faster drying times than colors. Huge production numbers for those times. So, it wasn't that color couldn't be produced and finished prior to nitro, it just took too dang long to cure/dry before you could handle it.

Ford was all about production...cranking out as many as he could! Maximum productivity = more income for Ford.…Pure economics.

In the early 20's when nitro was introduced, Dupont's much faster drying times enabled Ford to add color back into his equation and keep production high. Everybody needs a T and it's back in a variety of colors!

[usqebach]

I don't have much to add (like that ever slowed me down! ) but to me, there is a decided difference on the top finish of the Sheraton Brown mandolins from the (ballpark) 1921-1924 time frame (vs. pumpkintop and blacktop finishes). Those Sheraton models invariably have a prominent "wear spot" whereas the others rarely do. I only have a direct experience with one (but have seen in person and/or played several others), but to find one without that varnish worn away seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

Any ideas about that? I see Steve says they are nitro-cellulose lacquer, but I thought that the nitro was supposed to be "harder" than the softer varnish it replaced.

[sgrexa]

Well we are not really talking about colors, just the clear coat (I think?). That being the case, I am not sure why Gibson picked the white A3s and Sheraton brown As unless they simply wanted to experiment with this "new" finish on two extremes (white and dark brown). That is certainly a possibility. I thought that Steve mentioning the possible use of nitro as early as 1918 was one of the most interesting parts of his post, though all of it was very interesting. At least to me.

Sean

[Hendrik Ahrend]

No doubt, all of it was very interesting, indeed. Though still, seems there was no nitro at Gibson before '25, experiments possibly already in '23 or '24.

[Bernie Daniel]

Well we are not really talking about colors, just the clear coat (I think?). That being the case, I am not sure why Gibson picked the white A3s and Sheraton brown As unless they simply wanted to experiment with this "new" finish on two extremes (white and dark brown). That is certainly a possibility. I thought that Steve mentioning the possible use of nitro as early as 1918 was one of the most interesting parts of his post, though all of it was very interesting. At least to me. Sean

Regarding the while color on A-3's. In the early 1970's I met Paul Miller of Downers Grove, IL -- he was then in his mid-70's I would guess. Paul was an early member (founding member?) of the Fretted Instrument Guild of America (FIGA) and a long time performer in a Chicago mandolin orchestra. Later in his life, when I knew him Paul was not preforming but rather he was a "traveling" vintage instrument sales man --selling mostly old Gibson mandolins family pieces out of his long, black Oldsmobile station wagon. I bought four instruments from him in the 1972 - 1974 period. Anyway, one day when he was passing through Columbus, Ohio Paul once showed me three almost matching A-3's and told me that he used to sell that model almost exclusively to women players back in the late 1920's and 30's. So maybe it was a conscience marketing ploy?

[HoGo]

I think the old terminology is often misanderstood. New finish was likely just new color scheme. I think something like that was used to describe the new cremona brown finish in early 20's.