Action, tone, and responsiveness

[Bill Bradshaw]

Hello all:

I've been gradually lowering the action on my mandolin and it seems to be getting better and better. The tone just kills me right now and it seems to take less and less effort to elict the cool sounds out of it. I can almost look at the strings to get nice sound out of them. It's never played more easily or sounded better.

Does that make sense? Can changing the action account for that, or is it just my imagination? I know volume can be affected by the action, but wonder about tone.

Thanks for any insight.

Bill

[pheffernan]

Does that make sense? Can changing the action account for that, or is it just my imagination? I know volume can be affected by the action, but wonder about tone.

Sure. Tone comes from fingers, so it follows that fingers that aren't overexerting could produce superior tone.

[Bill Bradshaw]

Sure. Tone comes from fingers, so it follows that fingers that aren't overexerting could produce superior tone.

It also seems like it takes less pick effort to get the good tone. Just don't have to hit the strings hard at all; even with open strings and no fingers involved.

Bill

[avaldes]

Lowering action changes the "break angle", which is the angle the strings make across the bridge. Too low or too high is bad, so maybe you are finding a sweet spot. Tone improvement could be the mandolin opening up, and don't discount improvements in your skill as a player.

[Bill Bradshaw]

So in terms of responsiveness (not having to play hard at all) the sweet spot is right in the middle of the downward pressured exerted by the strings and the resistance of the top plate? If that is the case, I suppose that in terms of tone, the sweet spot might be a little one way or the other, depending on a persons preferences.

Bill

[OldSausage]

You can't know, it's different for every mandolin, so you have to experiment with the mandolin you have. But also bear in mind that adjusting the action, unless it is a huge adjustment, doesn't really change the downward force on the bridge a great deal. Most of the improvement you hear is just your fingers thanking you.

[Bill Bradshaw]

You can't know, it's different for every mandolin, so you have to experiment with the mandolin you have. But also bear in mind that adjusting the action, unless it is a huge adjustment, doesn't really change the downward force on the bridge a great deal. Most of the improvement you hear is just your fingers thanking you.

Thanks to all for the insights.

Bill

[JeffD]

You can't know, it's different for every mandolin, so you have to experiment with the mandolin you have.

Zakly!

Because of this I don't know if you can measure your way to good tone, its more of a try and listen and adjust kind of procedure.

[Pasha Alden]

I think it does, to some degree add to the way one plays, as someone said. If one can fret strings easier, I imagine the hand is freed up and it is probably less of an effort to produce good tone.
I find this particularly true when playing my Crafter Ovation and then switching to my Jbovier. The Crafter is by no means unplayable.On the contrary, I've received compliments from another mandolin player on the action.
However, perhaps due to a slight difference in setup, a smaller neck for my small hands, the Jbovier is just easier to play and it feels as if I need less effort to produce a good tone.


Happy playing!

[bart mcneil]

Most instruments are so poorly set up from the store (or not set up at all) that what you are experiencing is "normal" as your mando is being set up and gradually fine tuned, Once I learned to set up my own instruments it opened a door to buying lousy sounding instruments and making them playable, comfortable and in tune. It is amazing how awful many instrument sound and play straight from the store.

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

On some mandolins, lower action can give a smoother, less abrasive tone. Depends on what you like really. There have been times when I've lowered the action and liked the tone better. Usually goes the other way though for me. One of my mandolins sounds better with a little lower action, the other with a little higher action.

[William Smith]

I love a low action, the lower the better as long as there is no buzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. I think that is where the best tone comes from. Plus mandolins/instruments play better and you don't wear yourself out like high action. You do sacrifice volume but one shouldn't have to beat oneself up or the instrument to be "heard"! I've tried to mention that to certain people I play/played with and if they listen the music just flows and sounds spectacular but if ya have everyone slamming down on their gear the music just in my opinion is ridged and stiff. "Hard", just not good.

[High Lonesome Valley]

Most instruments are so poorly set up from the store (or not set up at all) that what you are experiencing is "normal" as your mando is being set up and gradually fine tuned, Once I learned to set up my own instruments it opened a door to buying lousy sounding instruments and making them playable, comfortable and in tune. It is amazing how awful many instrument sound and play straight from the store.

And then there are the instruments the hill folk bring in, beat strings, left out in the cold and heat, action horrible, neck bowed, epoxy slathered on an old break, etc. And, my, how those hill folk can make 'em sing.

[JeffD]

A fellow I play with often plays a Kentucky A style mandolin with very light strings. He has the action down low. The result is that he can play at blistering speeds, but the volume is low and the tone is thin and tinny. Not at all typical of what the mandolin is capable of with medium strings and a little higher action.

But he told me he only cares about playing fast. I asked about volume he said he could always get a microphone.

[OldSausage]

And then there are the instruments the hill folk bring in, beat strings, left out in the cold and heat, action horrible, neck bowed, epoxy slathered on an old break, etc. And, my, how those hill folk can make 'em sing.

Been watching Andy Griffith, have we?

[High Lonesome Valley]

Been watching Andy Griffith, have we?

I had a music store in Salem County, NJ where many southerners had moved to for work at DuPont. Also, a once a year bluegrass festival next door, so a lot of folks would come in around then.

They'd let me play their instruments and I couldn't get a tweak out of them, just not used to such a setup, etc. They'd make 'em ring.

I remember borrowing a Martin 000-18, for recording, from a blazing professional bluegrass player in Utah. I could barely touch the strings to the neck. I have strong fingers, but am not used to bridge cables for strings. This guy rivaled anybody I've heard for speed on his guitar.

[BJ O'Day]

After reading this thread I worked up the courage to lower my bridge and strings (big deal huh?). I am very new to this and was afraid I would put something out of alignment. I find it easier to play, no buzzing. Hopefully I'll be able to fret better with my pinkie.

BJ

[Pasha Alden]

Lower action certainly makes things easier for me.
Also there is no buzzing and that's just fine by me.

[Bill Bradshaw]

Lower action certainly makes things easier for me.
Also there is no buzzing and that's just fine by me.

Me too. Not suprisingly, the lower action is way easier to play. The added benefit for me has been what I hear as better tone. Again though, I've been slowly tweaking relief and action.

I can make my to mando buzz for sure, but in a good setting, I don't have to play hard to get nice tone. In a loud environment - all bets are off.

BB

[dezguy]

I went to a mandolin camp last year with Scott Gates and one of the first things he did was raise my action. Considerably. It killed my fingers for the first three months...but after the callouses formed I improved as a player. Yes, a lower action can improve playability in the short run. But, get used to a higher action and it seems to be all around better in the long.

Cheers,
Mike

[OldSausage]

I went to a mandolin camp last year with Scott Gates and one of the first things he did was raise my action. Considerably. It killed my fingers for the first three months...but after the callouses formed I improved as a player. Yes, a lower action can improve playability in the short run. But, get used to a higher action and it seems to be all around better in the long.

Cheers,
Mike

Do you know why? Or did Scott say why?

[dezguy]

Do you know why? Or did Scott say why?

Scott is a very aggressive player, so it was certainly about getting volume from the instrument. But, I also think the tone is much cleaner too.

My Fender is a completely different instrument with it's action raised up.

Last week I raised the action on my Gibson and it also made a huge difference.

Cheers,
Mike

[OldSausage]

Yes, he's high action guy alright:



Hurts my fingers just to hear him play. Great stuff, though.

[Paul Merlo]

I dropped the action a little bit on my Weber a while ago and have to think the volume and punch dropped with it.

And since I'm due for a string change tonight, I'm thinking of going all out and raising it back up, as well as checking the intonation and truss rod while I'm at it.

[Timbofood]

In my mind, it all about balance, too high, less comfortable, too low, no guts or glory. I play pretty hard but, action, string gauge, and weather(humidity) make some impact. There were days when stupid heavy strings, jacked up action were what I wanted, I have since lightened strings, lowered action and I feel like accuracy and tone improved.
Long chat with luthier friend and maybe I was "overdriving the top" in effect adding so much static load that it was "pinched or stifled". It's been a long time since the change and I am glad I lightened up so to speak.
Everything changes, given time.