Likely Orville Gibson made mandolin

[Michael Weaver]

I just did. Holy cow! The inside of the case is pretty cool (D.L. Spero Mens Outfitters). Hopefully the OP will post them on here.

[Jim Garber]

Here's a few choice ones for the thread... I love that bridge. From the ones I have seen, I don't think he repeated any designs from one mandolin to the other. They are like interesting sculptures.

[Michael Weaver]

I really like the bridge too.

[danb]

I think what we are seeing here is a well-executed copy by another maker. The details that Orville used are pretty consistently seen accross his instruments. In some ways, this is a simplification of the more complicated Orville design.

It's a really cool instrument !

[Ken Waltham]

I stand by my statement. That one has never been in Kalamazoo. Nothing about it says Gibson to me. A violin maker, perhaps, but more likely one of the early instrument companies as mentioned above.

[mrmando]

Here's a thread on Stahl "violin-style" mando-family instruments, which share some superficial characteristics with the present example: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...lin%27-mandola

[mrmando]

And here's a Brandt mandola with C-bouts, courtesy of Gregg Miner:

[Michael Weaver]

Not really seeing much similarities between the Stahl or Brandt. Here is a question to think about. If someone went to the trouble to replicate the tailpiece, the crescent, the bridge, the neck heel to me looks like Gibson and install Handel tuners why would they carve a violin body shape we haven't seen used in previous Gibsons? It would have been more simple to stick with the known body shape.

[mrmando]

Only one of Orville's F-style mandolins is known to have Handel tuners, and I'm not entirely sure they are original to that instrument. Orville was known to be partial to friction tuners on most of the F-styles he built.

The one with Handels is dated 1900, which was toward the end of Orville's solo-building career. His F-style design was well worked out by that time. And, as has been noted, his mandolins tended to be ornate, and his later ones tended to be more ornate than earlier ones.

To make any sense at all of the idea that the instrument presently under discussion was built by Orville, I think we'd have to suppose that it was built at the very beginning of his career, before he'd completely worked out the F model. And the presence of Handel tuners argues sharply against that supposition.

[MikeEdgerton]

The origin of the "Lump Scroll"---WoW! so there was a historical context to the lump scroll of the 1970's --I'll bet no one,not even at Gibson (or maybe particularly at Gibson) knew that! Could this be a prototype of an early attempt to accomplish what the 70's lump was trying to do by the new purchasers of Orville's name?..

The first lump scroll Gibson (other than perhaps this one) was in the 30's on a Gibson second line mandolin.

If this was a Gibson built instrument it might be one of the elusive body styles with a letter from B to E. That would at least explain the A and F style designation. The Lyre shaped body would probably be in there as well.

[danb]

Well I think this is attributable to roughly the 1900-1912 time period- but still I think we are looking at a copycat luthier of some nature. The tuners aren't a reliable dating device, they are quite easily replaced. The tuner plate style *does* look like the older ones to me, with more elaborate decoration stamped into them than seen in the later ones.

[mrmando]

The tuners aren't a reliable dating device, they are quite easily replaced.

Perhaps, but when the OP argues that the tuners are "consistent with Orville Gibson made instruments," it behooves us to judge that claim in light of the evidence. The OP makes the same claim about the tailpiece ... but in point of fact, that lyre tailpiece appears on precisely zero of the Orville mandolins one can find in a Google image search. The star and crescent on the headstock is the only real point of similarity, and even it isn't quite the same as any that Orville produced.

[danb]

I think the main departure from Orville pieces here is the carving. Orville used thicker plates, and even his simplest works have very elaborate furniture-like carving. The backs are very deep and sculpted on his, and the huge thick pieces of wood used are much more dramatic.

[MikeEdgerton]

The tailpiece and tuners were obviously off the shelf products available to anyone so any proof would be in the mandolin itself. By the way, this looks strangely familiar.

[Timbofood]

Fingerboard doesn't look like Orville's style too much to me. Maybe his,cousin, Artemus Gobson did it?
"Say, cousin Orville, I need a set of tuning machines for this thing, got a spare set?"

[MikeEdgerton]

On Siminoff's Orville page there are three early Orville built instruments. When you look at those vs the one in the OP there are some things that just aren't right if indeed it was built early.

http://siminoff.net/gibson-background/

[Darryl Wolfe]

I'm going to stand by my observations posted on Facebook. I think this mandolin is by Orville and it simply pre-dates the full development of his F-style. Now, if we knew for sure when it was made, we might think differently.

The one thing that stands out to me is that the F-attributes are there. When you remove the violin type cuts in the side, it really starts taking on the look.

What I'm saying is I think this looks more like something evolving INTO an F instead of an F devolved into this.

I think we should quit saying this doesn't look Orville and that doesn't and consider that it could pre-date everything Orville finally decided on.

Thanks for posting this on MandolinCafe as I asked Alex.

[MikeEdgerton]

I knew I'd seen that mandolin before. It's here.

[Michael Weaver]

I knew I'd seen that mandolin before. It's here.

Hmmmm....interesting!

[Jim Garber]

The OP makes the same claim about the tailpiece ... but in point of fact, that lyre tailpiece appears on precisely zero of the Orville mandolins one can find in a Google image search.

Well, not exactly... it is on one of the Lyre mandolins but I agree that could easily have been replaced as well and is not a basis for attribution to the maker.

[Timbofood]

The "Lyre" I saw back in the mid '70's had a pineapple TP if memory serves.
I suppose the argument for it preceding the accepted "F" style is reasonable enough but....

[MikeEdgerton]

The Lyre mandolin that surfaced at Gruhn's in 2006 had the same tailpiece as the OP's does and the headstock inlay is more like that on the OP's mandolin. (Photo from Siminoff page linked to above)

Oops and posted by Jim Garber previously.

Detailed photo's of this mandolin can be found here, including a closeup of the carving on the Lyre mandolin bridge.

[MikeEdgerton]

So far all of the Orville built instruments I've seen seemed to have a volute where the neck meets the headstock. Did they all have that?

[Timbofood]

I will never forget the day when the lyre mandolin came through the door, there were four of us standing there pretty much dumbfounded! The guy had made a trade at the drag races the day before and had heard about the store, happy he came to see us before he went to the factory! I know this all has been brought up before but, it jogged the memory.

[Steve Davis]

The reply was meant for Graham.