What is a Celtic mandolin?

[Dagger Gordon]

Incidentally, this fairly long thread has not yet touched on the rhythm possibilities of the 'Celtic' mandolin, and it's plenty loud enough for that.

Last weekend at a local festival I saw Adrian Edmondson and The Bad Shepherds, with Troy Donockley on Uilleann pipes and cittern.
Adrian was mainly playing rhythm on this interesting instrument, and very effective it was too.
http://www.thebadshepherds.com/le-do...au-est-arrive/

[Jim Bevan]

Well... maybe it ain't so harp-like these days -- the strings are maybe three years old. But at least it's not harsh-sounding, not too metallic-y, even though it's every bit as loud as a banjo, holds its own with pipes, etc.

And ya, the lovely jig Mattie and Karine's Wedding deserves another take, but pizza's on the way, the baby's fussing, so, good enough to hear the tonal qualities of my Rigel/National 10-string Resophonic Mandola.
(The reason I play the Sobell more often in sessions is that it has a shorter name. )

[Bertram Henze]

Well... maybe it ain't so harp-like these days -- the strings are maybe three years old. But at least it's not harsh-sounding, not too metallic-y, even though it's every bit as loud as a banjo, holds its own with pipes, etc.

Sounding very good and fit for anything Irish in my ears. Three years??? Now I'm extra-curious how it sounds with new strings.

[GarY Nava]

As a professional luthier, who works extremely hard at producing the best possible flat-top mandolins that I can, at a price that is affordable, I resent some of the implications regarding flat-tops here. I put as much love and care into my instruments as anyone could and I'm sure that many colleagues, who for whatever quirk of fate are not big names, do also.

[Mike Anderson]

As a professional luthier, who works extremely hard at producing the best possible flat-top mandolins that I can, at a price that is affordable, I resent some of the implications regarding flat-tops here. I put as much love and care into my instruments as anyone could and I'm sure that many colleagues, who for whatever quirk of fate are not big names, do also.

Gary, this thread is full of disturbing implications to me...I mean, I admit I am not a mandolinist - only a formerly professional player/singer of "Celtic" music - but I find it verges on bizarre that so many of the mandolins I see are knockoffs of old Gibsons.

First off, frankly given Gibson's attitude historically toward copying e.g. a vintage L-5 guitar, I don't understand why the lawsuits aren't flying. Second, I am bewildered by the lack of desire for variety on the part of both the luthiers and their customers. I also can't help feeling I am spouting the worst kind of heresy in the mandolin community, simply by virtue of the total dominance of this style of instrument, but I can live with any backlash because I am genuinely confused by this and just laying it out as I see it. Is it all just because Bill Monroe played one? I honestly don't know.

Thirdly, I would bet the majority of people insisting on the superiority of archtop instruments over flattop are not actually from "Celtic" regions, were not raised in "Celtic" traditions, and may even prefer bluegrass and other styles commonly associated with Gibson instruments to "Celtic." Please correct me if I'm wrong, folks, but I find it telling that every known "Celtic" mandolinist - i.e. actually born and raised in the tradition - has used a flattop instrument. My latest discovery BTW is Dave Curley of Slide, who seems to be playing a Foley.

Gary, you have my sympathy. There is a lot of voodoo and fetishism associated with any instrument, and I hate to see it affect the success of the people who make them. As a good friend and outstanding musician said to me recently, "No one in the history of the world ever said 'You know, I like Hank Williams's music, but I'd enjoy it a lot more if he had used a baltic spruce top guitar with mahogany back and sides and Grover tuning heads…'"

[foldedpath]

First off, frankly given Gibson's attitude historically toward copying e.g. a vintage L-5 guitar, I don't understand why the lawsuits aren't flying. Second, I am bewildered by the lack of desire for variety on the part of both the luthiers and their customers. I also can't help feeling I am spouting the worst kind of heresy in the mandolin community, simply by virtue of the total dominance of this style of instrument, but I can live with any backlash because I am genuinely confused by this and just laying it out as I see it. Is it all just because Bill Monroe played one? I honestly don't know.

With respect, I think you might have to play the instrumental side of this music to understand why many of the prominent players have chosen a type of mandolin that still "sounds like a mandolin," while also having some projection and volume. Especially in a band context, or even just playing with an accompanying guitar. If you haven't tried to do that, then you may not understand why some types of instruments are preferred over others.

Thirdly, I would bet the majority of people insisting on the superiority of archtop instruments over flattop are not actually from "Celtic" regions, were not raised in "Celtic" traditions, and may even prefer bluegrass and other styles commonly associated with Gibson instruments to "Celtic." Please correct me if I'm wrong, folks, but I find it telling that every known "Celtic" mandolinist - i.e. actually born and raised in the tradition - has used a flattop instrument. My latest discovery BTW is Dave Curley of Slide, who seems to be playing a Foley.

Well, now we're getting into some troublesome territory, and I hope we're not going down the path of thinking that only someone born in Ireland can play this music. Otherwise, I'm going to have to throw out all my Liz Carroll CD's.


What is a "known Celtic mandolinist" anyway? As mandolinists, we're still outsiders trying to find our way into this music. A list of prominent and well-known mandolin players in the music playing the instrumental repertoire might include the following...

Brian McDonagh (Dervish) -- Gibson H mandola, not sure what he's playing now.
Simon Mayor -- F-hole A style archtop
Luke Plumb (Shooglenifty) -- Daffy A style I think, also a Gil F5?
Marla Fribish -- Gibson A
Dave Swarbrick -- Gibson A
Dan Beimborn - A and F-styles
Kevin Macleod -- Sobell and National RM-1?

Some of these respected players are Cafe members, and I'm sure they'll correct me if I'm misrepresenting their current choice of instruments.

This is not to disparage a well-made flattop. I wish I had the funds to own every type of mandolin that's even remotely connected to this music, and if I did, I'd own a flattop too. But meanwhile, I play a mandolin that works in all situations I encounter -- private enjoyment at home, playing out in sessions, and gigs where the mandolin is amplified. No amount of appeal to what's considered a "classic" mandolin for playing this music is going to change my personal choice for what to play this music on.

Just my $.02 opinion, your mileage may vary, and all other standard disclaimers!

[nkforster]

As a professional luthier, who works extremely hard at producing the best possible flat-top mandolins that I can, at a price that is affordable, I resent some of the implications regarding flat-tops here. I put as much love and care into my instruments as anyone could and I'm sure that many colleagues, who for whatever quirk of fate are not big names, do also.

Well it wasn't my intention to make people feel resentful after reading the article. But then inevitably whenever we take any view we will find ourselves upsetting or arguing with someone. The sad thing is when the person who takes offence happens to be a hard working fellow professional. It's difficult not to take a word or a comment personally when our work is so personal to us, but please understand my intention wasn't to cause resentment, rather it was to stimulate a bit of debate, which so far seems to have worked.

I hope your irritation doesn't prevent you from finding other stuff in the article useful: For me it was really good to learn from Luke Plumb (who speaks very highly of flat top mandolins) about their limitations on stage with a mic. I didn't know this.

Clearly flat top mandolins do have a significant place in the "Celtic" market. Actually I would say they make up the lions share of "onion shaped" mandolins out there. Throughout the piece I and others point out the appeal of flat top instruments. Doesn't mean I have to like them though.

It's normal for these sort of disagreements to get resolved with the "not better but different" line, but that's not how I feel about it. Now your flat top mandolins may well be magnificent Gary, I've never tried one, they certainly look very well made. How you do it for that price too is beyond me, they're amazingly well priced. It's possible playing one of yours could change my view, but I have tried quite a few flat top mandolins over the years and I've not liked them, hence the stance I take in the article.

In writing the piece several things became clear to me -

That the "Celtic" mandolin market is very limited and even the most sought after work commands prices far below their Bluegrass counterparts.

There is (in the folkie world of mandolins) a very clear "two stage" price ceiling, of cheaper and pricer work and that breaks down pretty much to flat top/carved top. I know which ones I prefer but if your experience is different, that's fair enough.

The reality is this: the majority of customers are happy with a flat top, and the majority of mandolin players in the folk world just accept the fact that in a session they may well have to take a different instrument. Carved or flat, onion shaped round hole mandolins rarely perform well in a session.

That there doesn't seem to be so much experimentation going on in either "school" whether it be flat top or carved top onion shaped mandolins. "Celtic" mandolin design does seem to be suffering from a certain amount of "ossification." Which may be due to the size of the market. There just isn't much in it for anyone to invest the time and effort to come up with a new design that works better. No one is going to get rich making and selling onion shaped mandolins.

That despite this, there is a tiny gap in the market for a better Celtic mandolin, for an instrument that can perform in a session, on stage and in the studio. Whether it's flat top or carved top isn't so important, other than it will be far easier to sell a superior flat top mandolin as they're cheaper to make.

Until such an instrument appears the market will remain as it is and the mandolin will remain on the sidelines when it comes to "Celtic" music.

For me personally it means I'm going to experiment with both designs- carved and flat. I never thought I'd be doing that, but we have to work with the market as it is, not how we want it to be. I've no idea what the outcome will be, but putting is article together has rekindled my interest in Celtic mandolin design, hopefully it will do the same for other makers and players too.

Nigel
www.nkforsterguitars.com

[Dagger Gordon]

Some good points all round I think.

I think the context in which a mandolin is to be used is all-important here.
Whether it's mainly for sessions, or to be miked up on stage, or played at home etc is obviously going to make all the difference in your choice(s) of instruments, and indeed I think the question of which mandolin is 'best' for a session has often become too much the dominant issue. It's obviously not as loud as a tenor banjo or resonator instruments, but I really don't think volume is why most of us are actually attracted to the instrument in the first place.

With this in mind, I want to highlight a quote from the Belgian mandolin group MANdolin MAN, who I first heard of earlier this year. They play old Flemish tunes, which are not so terribly different from old dance tunes which might be found in Britain.
The interviewer is curious as to their selection of instruments, and here is what they said:

"I was intrigued by the range of mandolins on the album, from a vintage 1920’s Lyon and Healy B Style, to a modern bluegrass instrument, a Weber from 2010. When selecting the instruments I wondered did they spend hours agonising over the voicings you could get from the different types of mandolin?

Andries says, “We always searched for the best sound combinations from the mandolins. It is when mixing the different types of mandolins that a broad sound is created. Also, and this may sound strange but is perhaps obvious when you consider it, the choice of plectrums can really alter the sound an instrument can make. One advantage of having a range of mandolins comes at the mixing stage as you have all these different voices to work with and that adds so much more character to the recording. It also helps us to build a big sound from only four instruments.”

One refreshing aspect of the album is the band’s willingness to use instruments that are in the price range of the ordinary hobby player, for example they have a 2003 Trinity College Mandola, they retail for under €500 and would be seen as a well made improvers model. Andreis tells me the instrument has a really good sound and it worked well in combination with the other instruments. “We could have gone out and bought all sorts of very expensive mandolins, and as a solo player or a hobbyist who plays for themselves at home, that would be a temptation, but we knew what we really wanted was a sound from the ensemble and you know we didn’t have to spend thousands on getting the sound we wanted. As the idea was to set up a one off project, it was not the intention to spend too much money on the instruments.”

So for these guys, how the instruments sound TOGETHER is the critical issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPxc9Hl4CII

[Wolfboy]

Following this thread with great interest from the sidelines so far, but have to chime in on this:

I would bet the majority of people insisting on the superiority of archtop instruments over flattop are not actually from "Celtic" regions, were not raised in "Celtic" traditions, and may even prefer bluegrass and other styles commonly associated with Gibson instruments to "Celtic." Please correct me if I'm wrong, folks, but I find it telling that every known "Celtic" mandolinist - i.e. actually born and raised in the tradition - has used a flattop instrument.

Adding to foldedpath's list, I'd like to point out that Andy Irvine, Mick Moloney and Dave Richardson - arguably three of the most influential mandolinists in "Celtic" music, and all "from 'Celtic' regions" and "raised in 'Celtic' traditions," in your words - play archtop mandolins: Irvine and Moloney played vintage Gibson A models for years (don't know if they still are) and Richardson has been associated pretty much exclusively with Sobell for longer than just about anyone else I can think of.

As for the implied suggestion that one born and raised in the tradition and/or in a "Celtic" country bears an inherent superiority of musical judgement or ability over one who wasn't - if that was your intention, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one, because I reject it flat out. As regards "Celtic" music or any other musical tradition.

[Mike Anderson]

Following this thread with great interest from the sidelines so far, but have to chime in on this:

Adding to foldedpath's list, I'd like to point out that Andy Irvine, Mick Moloney and Dave Richardson - arguably three of the most influential mandolinists in "Celtic" music, and all "from 'Celtic' regions" and "raised in 'Celtic' traditions," in your words - play archtop mandolins: Irvine and Moloney played vintage Gibson A models for years (don't know if they still are) and Richardson has been associated pretty much exclusively with Sobell for longer than just about anyone else I can think of.

As for the implied suggestion that one born and raised in the tradition and/or in a "Celtic" country bears an inherent superiority of musical judgement or ability over one who wasn't - if that was your intention, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one, because I reject it flat out. As regards "Celtic" music or any other musical tradition.

Thank you foldedpath and Wolfboy. Brian McDonagh plays an Abnett as Roger Landes pointed out to my many months ago, and the only pics I have seen of Andy Irvine playing mandolin show him with a flattop, but all that aside...

I absolutely, positively insist that of course people raised in those countries and traditions, and who originated that music and continue to inject their creativity and vitality into it are the best judges of what is appropriate not just in terms of instruments used, but more to the point, stylistically, and am astounded anyone would suggest otherwise. I did NOT say that "nobody from other countries should play the music."

I'll frame my argument the way I did earlier in this thread and then deleted, and got an agreement with from a member:

Let's say I'm a Caucasian Canadian (which I am) who wants to play African percussion (which I have done). How do you think an African - and a lot of Caucasians - would feel if I said "here's the direction African drumming should go"? I'd be called a cultural thief and a neo-colonialist and undoubtedly a lot worse. And IMO, the people saying those things would be entirely justified. But I wouldn't do that. I'd practice an increasingly rare thing called humility and learn from the cultures that originated that music and are the rightful people to guide its direction. It is at the end of the day not "my music" - I am a practitioner and imitator of that music, and I stand in complete humility in the face of its long tradition, passion, and the genius of the people whose music it well and truly is - just as I did when playing African music, or Brazilian or Cuban.

This is exactly the argument I got in such trouble for at another forum, and I still haven't learned my lesson clearly - the lesson that people believe that because they can imitate a musical form that they have somehow acquired the right to dictate its direction and destiny. We are not rock stars here, people - our egos should not get in the way of what appears to me, glaringly, as common sense and common courtesy.

Your mileage may vary. Again, I did not say, and never will, that people from one culture shouldn't play the music of another. But I did say and will till my dying day that your saying so does not make it "your music".

[Shelagh Moore]

It's normal for these sort of disagreements to get resolved with the "not better but different" line, but that's not how I feel about it. Now your flat top mandolins may well be magnificent Gary, I've never tried one, they certainly look very well made. How you do it for that price too is beyond me, they're amazingly well priced. It's possible playing one of yours could change my view, but I have tried quite a few flat top mandolins over the years and I've not liked them, hence the stance I take in the article.

I can understand your preference and, of course, we all have one but what sticks in my throat a bit Nigel, and I suspect those of one or two others, is your assertion in your article that carved top mandolins are "superior". I've owned many mandolins and probably even more guitars over the 50 years I've been playing including flat top and carved top models of each. I would not use the term "superior" in comparing them... they are quite different sounds. You may not like flat top mandolins and that is OK but some of us actually prefer them for some types of music for their particular acoustic characteristics. Other players may have different preferences. I also like carved tops for other types of music and own a National RM-1 which excels in situations where a decent tone plus volume is required.

[Wolfboy]

I absolutely, positively insist that of course people raised in those countries and traditions, and who originated that music and continue to inject their creativity and vitality into it are the best judges of what is appropriate not just in terms of instruments used, but more to the point, stylistically, and am astounded anyone would suggest otherwise. I did NOT say that "nobody from other countries should play the music."

I'll frame my argument the way I did earlier in this thread and then deleted, and got an agreement with from a member:

Let's say I'm a Caucasian Canadian (which I am) who wants to play African percussion (which I have done). How do you think an African - and a lot of Caucasians - would feel if I said "here's the direction African drumming should go"? I'd be called a cultural thief and a neo-colonialist and undoubtedly a lot worse. And IMO, the people saying those things would be entirely justified. But I wouldn't do that. I'd practice an increasingly rare thing called humility and learn from the cultures that originated that music and are the rightful people to guide its direction. It is at the end of the day not "my music" - I am a practitioner and imitator of that music, and I stand in complete humility in the face of its long tradition, passion, and the genius of the people whose music it well and truly is - just as I did when playing African music, or Brazilian or Cuban.

This is exactly the argument I got in such trouble for at another forum, and I still haven't learned my lesson clearly - the lesson that people believe that because they can imitate a musical form that they have somehow acquired the right to dictate its direction and destiny. We are not rock stars here, people - our egos should not get in the way of what appears to me, glaringly, as common sense and common courtesy.

Your mileage may vary. Again, I did not say, and never will, that people from one culture shouldn't play the music of another. But I did say and will till my dying day that your saying so does not make it "your music".

Again, we'll have to agree to disagree on that. I contend that anyone who loves a musical tradition enough to immerse themselves in it - with humility, as you say - learning from the masters, developing a deep understanding of and identification with the culture from which it evolved, mastering the nuances of both technique and emotive content, et cetera, can in fact ultimately become a master themselves despite not being born into it. At that point, it is their music, and they do acquire the right to contribute to dictating its direction and destiny.

I wouldn't want to be the one to call Bruce Molsky, for example, an "imitator" of old-time Appalachian music, with no right to contribute to its future directions, because he grew up in New York City. Likewise, for example, Stuart Duncan or Dan Tyminski for bluegrass (California and Vermont, respectively), or Tracy or Peter Schwarz for Cajun music (Pennsylvania), or the aforementioned Liz Carroll for Irish traditional music (Chicago), or the late Jerry Holland for Cape Breton fiddling (Massachusetts)...

One of the finest, and most knowledgable, Irish flute and whistle players I've ever heard is my erstwhile duo partner Michel Sikiotakis, a lifelong Parisian. Michel has put in the time and effort studying the music, learning from the masters, traveling through Ireland immersing himself in the tradition, and I'd put him up against just about any Irish-born flute player both for chops and for innate understanding of the music. Furthermore - importantly for my position on this issue - I've traveled with him in Ireland and seen for myself how the recognized master musicians in Clare and Galway respect and welcome him as a peer, fully their equal. (He was also in a band for a while with Gerry O'Connor and Niamh Parsons - they accepted him as an equal too, and I'd say that's endorsement enough...)

But we're getting a bit off track here. You have your opinion, I have mine, and I'm afraid I've met too many musicians born outside the traditions they adopted whom I would consider masters of those traditions for your argument to convince me. You might not consider them masters, and that's fine; we're each entitled to our opinions on this.

Back to flat vs. arched mandolins...

[foldedpath]

Here's another wrinkle on this topic, and I apologize in advance if I'm upsetting anyone with what I'm about to say. At least it has nothing to do with whether you're born in Erin or not.


Getting out of your house and joining an Irish or Scottish session is the crucible, where you will learn how this music is played by people who aren't mandolin players. Because unlike Bluegrass or Oldtime or even the "Irish Folk Song Revival" stuff in the 60's, this music wasn't developed on the mandolin. It really has nothing to do with mandolin. We're finding our way in through the back kitchen door, picking up a few tricks from tenor banjo players, and finding ways to use the harmonic advantages of the instrument.

I admire the people listed in this thread who have gained recognition for bringing the mandolin to this music. But that's not who I learn from, even though I buy their CD's to see what they're doing!

I learn from fiddlers, flute players, and sometimes even pipers, who have been playing this music a lot longer than I have. These are the people you learn from, if you want to get beyond "Who are the famous Celtic Mandolin Players?". And you'd better be playing an instrument that can be heard, or at least heard by yourself, in that live learning environment with other instruments that have been in the tradition for a very long time. Yes, those instruments are loud. We have to deal with it.

I'm not saying it's impossible to learn how to be a good Irish or Scottish mandolin player just with solo practice at home. There are many places where access to a session with good amateur players just isn't available. I lived most of my life in places like that. But I am saying that there is a tremendous boost in picking up this music when you actually join in with other people playing it, and who are probably playing other instruments than mandolin.

If there are no sessions in your area, consider one of the many national and international workshops, where you will always be a minority as a mandolin player, but you will be exposed to incredible playing on other instruments, that may inspire you to explore what's possible on the mandolin.

[nkforster]

I can understand your preference and, of course, we all have one but what sticks in my throat a bit Nigel, and I suspect those of one or two others, is your assertion in your article that carved top mandolins are "superior". I've owned many mandolins and probably even more guitars over the 50 years I've been playing including flat top and carved top models of each. I would not use the term "superior" in comparing them... they are quite different sounds. You may not like flat top mandolins and that is OK but some of us actually prefer them for some types of music for their particular acoustic characteristics. Other players may have different preferences. I also like carved tops for other types of music and own a National RM-1 which excels in situations where a decent tone plus volume is required.

Fair enough Richard. Thing is, without including my views the article might not make for such interesting reading, this thread has had a lot of posts and a lot of "hits" and that's no bad thing. But I'm not out to deliberately annoy fellow makers so I have rewritten some parts of the article. My views are still in there, as in the end, it's those views that influence the work I do. I've also added a section from my last post in this thread as it seems to sum things up well as I see them.

Here it is again:
http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/blog/celtic-mandolin/

Now I hope folk will be able to get beyond the stuff that bugs them and read the other stuff in the piece that might actually be of helpful, informative or thought provoking.


Nigel
http://www.nkforsterguitars.com

[Bertram Henze]

I learn from fiddlers, flute players, and sometimes even pipers, who have been playing this music a lot longer than I have. These are the people you learn from, if you want to get beyond "Who are the famous Celtic Mandolin Players?". And you'd better be playing an instrument that can be heard, or at least heard by yourself, in that live learning environment with other instruments that have been in the tradition for a very long time. Yes, those instruments are loud. We have to deal with it.

Second that.
And looking at the plethora of personal styles we hear on these other instruments, I find that we should be allowed to do the same, i.e. try individual approaches. If you want to play this music right, you have to make it your own. The player is more important than the instrument - it just should deliver what the player needs. My needs were always to be heard and to get as much sustaining harmonies with the melody as possible, and whatever instrument gives me that is welcome.

[Colin Lindsay]

"For the purposes of this article we will compare and contrast a “Celtic” mandolin with the Gibson A4 and F5 models. Why? Because they have become the two “standard” mandolins used in western music today.”

I was once marked down on a philosophy essay for sticking too much to one text book and ignoring all the others. Sticking to Gibson mandolins as the ‘staple’ ignores all the other instrument makers working away and making some excellent quality instruments. Similarly it’s an enormous step to claim that something called a ‘Celtic’ mandolin has become the standard in so-called ‘Celtic’ countries? Yes, Gibsons are made such-and-such a way, and others aren’t; but these others are not all made the same. Yes, there is a brand of instrument aimed at the folk or ‘Celtic’ player, usually with swirly designs on the outside, but I’d argue whether these instruments-for-the-musical-tourists are actually a unique species rather than just artistic packaging. I know a few local instrument makers - UK and Ireland - and they seem to make a wide range of styles and shapes including custom-made versions, so I don’t think they’re all crafting identical instruments like little elves in Santa’s workshop.
I just think the article is too much U S Grant - “I only know two mandolins.. one is Gibson, the other… isn’t…. "

[Nick Gellie]

Well I don't sit on either side of the fence when it comes to playing Celtic music. I have a Mike Black A2Z copy of a Gibson mandolin. It is a superb sounding and playing Celtic mandolin. It has a Virzi tone producer inside it. It is beautifully balanced in tone and volume across the strings and it sounds just like the Gibson A model that Wayne Taren is playing in this video clip:



Here you have a Irish flat-top bouzouki and a carved top mandolin sounding great. I have a Phil Crump B-1 bouzouki that is superb across the range. it is clear, has beautiful resonant sound but not with too much sustain. It has plenty of volume and projects and cuts well at the top end. You can make it sound like a Greek bouzouki if you want. I enjoy playing Balkan music on it as well. I also enjoy playing backing chords for Irish and Scottish music on it. I do like the Sobell long-necked bouzouki carved top as well - love the bell sounding notes one can get out of it.

And yes I have an Arches flat-top FT-0 with a cedar top and cocobolo back and sides and boy does that mandolin pack a punch, and sounds great through a microphone. I have not had problems with feedback. I love playing jazz chords on it because it is smooth yet deeper in tone than most other mandolins. If I want to play Celtic music, I get out my Mike Black A. If I want to play jazz and blues, I get my Arches flat-top. I also recently made an Arches F-5 carved top mandolin that I love playing for bluegrass and old-time.

I can understand what Nick Forster is getting at. He is expressing his preference for carved-tops based on his own observations and experiences. But I would not rule a good flat-top. Gara Nava makes a great sounding mandolin. They appear to be flat-tops:



He maybe has a different approach to Nick.

[Nick Gellie]

O I forgot one more thing. To me the term Celtic mandolin means Celtic music played on a mandolin. Dan in his earlier posts alluded to this. I don't really mind if it is played on a carved or a flat top, just so long as it sounds good, there is clear articulation and great rhythm. Tone of course comes into it of course but it is really up to the player. BTW I don't bother going to sessions with a gaggle of fiddles. I prefer playing in duets or trios, either with another mandolin, mandola, or bouzouki player. Mandolin family instruments in combination resonate off each other and sound great. Roger Landes's, Kevin Macleoud and Robin Bullock's work comes to mind. Thanks Kevin for pointing us to your new album. Great work!

[Boatswain]

Let's just all listen to what Tony has to say:



http://youtu.be/ThxECxTDLVA

On a serious note, I really have to agree with what a previous poster stated, that you have to "make the music yours." find some kind of connection to the music, internalize it, and play in a way that expresses your interpretation best. In doing so, you will only then be able to choose what type of mandolin is suited for your playing (ie there is no "one size fits all" "Celtic" mandolin out there).

[zoukboy]

Nigel's blog post was posted on FaceBook and I commented there that my friend Luke Plumb's reasons for preferring archtop mandos are precisely my reasons for preferring flattops! Horses for courses.

I don't think it is fair to hold Nigel responsible for his article in the way that we would a historian, for instance. As a luthier/designer/artist it isn't his job to be comprehensive and objective. I read such pieces of advocacy the way I would a political op-ed. He is making an argument and a pretty persuasive one at that. I disagree with a few of his value judgments but that is fine with me. Imagine how boring it would be if we all agreed that mandolin x was the only one for "Celtic" music and then acted accordingly. I think that such episodes of slight controversy are actually healthy even if a few shins and elbows get scuffed. It reminds me of the old saying, "Disputes in academe are particularly acrimonious because the stakes are so low." :-)

For my own part, I have owned mandolins made by Sobell (1984), Gibson (1913 punkin top A), and S.O. Smith (1998), and Newell (2009). I won't go into any perceived shortcomings of these instruments but the fact that I no longer own the first three perhaps speaks for itself.

I will say that for me the flattop, extended scale Newell ("RL" model) better supports my style, which relies heavily on left hand ornamentation as well as picked ("triplets," "trebles," "tribbles"). In order to play rolls and cranns on the mandolin with anything approaching they way they work on fiddle, uilleann pipes, flute, whistle, I need a super responsive instrument - lightning fast - with plenty of volume. If the first is lacking then the ornaments just won't happen. Without the second they won't be heard.

Also, I prefer the scooped out midrange on a good flattop because *to my ear* it blends better with the core instruments in Irish traditional music. I played a gig in Austin over the weekend with flute and fiddle and the blend was just about perfect, each instrument occupying its own part of the spectrum. But this is just one player's point of view. YMMV, NFI, etc., etc.

[danb]

I don't own a flat-top at the moment- but I have a hankering to get my hands on a Vega cylinderback again

Those are my favorite vintage flat-tops, and they are very cool.

To be totally fair- there aren't really *any* wooden mandolins (just to leave resonators out for the moment!) that are "loud enough" to take the same lead role as a tenor banjo or a fiddle in a noisy bar. If the jam is big and noisy, the mandolin or mandola come along for backing and decoration, but I'll take something louder (resonator tenor guitar? Banjo?) or perhaps even borrow a friend's for a few leads.

I've been able to get some extra power from borrowed Loars and Ferns in jams, but those are fairly rare cannons.. and still won't cut over background noise like a tenor banjo can.

[zoukboy]

Just my two cents worth, but if I encounter a session where my mandolin cannot be heard then I don't play, whether it is due to background noise (bad location), or crowd noise (bad location/insensitive punters), or noise that is self-inflicted by other players. It's just that simple. And I love playing tenor banjo but not because it is loud. I try not to play the tenor banjo any louder than the mando because I want to hear the musicians I am playing with. Personally I hate it when there is competition in a session and completing for volume has very little to do with playing well. An overbearing banjo or accordion can be absolute death to a good session. If a musician can't hear me in a session then either the environment is too noisy, or there are too many players, or that musician him/herself is playing too loud.

[JeffD]

A shout out and thank you to Richard Moore whose insistence I appreciate: that a resonator mandolin is a mandolin, not a "reso-lin", not a "mandolin-but-louder" or some kind of second cousin of a mandolin. Its a full member of the genus, along with the other species: carved top, flat top, bowlback etc.

And a comment to Foldedpath who says

Because unlike Bluegrass or Oldtime or even .... this music wasn't developed on the mandolin

just to say that the mandolin is a newcomer to oldtime as well, and while pretty well established in many circles, can hardly be thought of as an instrument upon which the genre was developed, even slightly.

This is a fascinating thread. I wish all the threads were as thoughtful and as insightful and interesting. That we might not all agree all the time is just part of it. Great stuff all. Keep it up....

[kmmando]

Here's a thread on Sobells mandolins elsewhere on the café

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...er-instruments

[mikeyes]

I've taken the liberty of shortening Kevin's Sobell demonstration to put in a few Gibson/Weber mandolin comparisons. I don't have his version of The Log Cabin, and it's not a favorite reel, but here are a few short videos of me sort of playing the reel and demonstrating a few mandolins I have managed to get my hands on I don't think this will resolve the issue of "Celtic Mandolin", but it can be the basis of even more comparison videos if anyone is interested in trying the same thing:

Kevin's Sobell:




Gibson A2


Gibson F2

http://youtu.be/cL7StfKC7qA?list=UU5...bwuOoFKavRZMqw

Weber Bighorn




Mike