Fixing the Flying Fingers!

[Amanda Gregg]

Hey everybody,

My goal for this year has been to fix my awful flying fingers problem. In case you have never heard of this dread disease, this means that my left hand technique is inefficient because my fingers move too far off the fretboard when not in use. I'm not unhappy with my speed or cleanliness, but I can anticipate a time in my life when my joints might not be so forgiving of my sloppiness.

One thing that has (perhaps counterintuitively?) helped is going through Ted Eschliman's FFcP exercises. I actually find I have more control after a few "weight lifting sessions."

I was wondering if you all have found tricks that work to improve this aspect of left hand technique besides the very helpful ::cough, cough:: advice I keep getting from people at jams to "just do it, ya know."

Tony Watt's advice was to sit really close to a computer keyboard drawer so that your fingers would hit the wood when you moved too far off the board, for punishment. Maybe I could rig up some kind of shock collar?

Any tricks?

[Tom Smart]

"Old dudes"?

[Amanda Gregg]

They don't have them at bluegrass jams where you are? LOL

Sorry, perhaps, "oldER dudes" would be better? I'm a 28 year old female, victim to much mansplaining.

[bigskygirl]

"Old dudes"?

Ha!

Reminds me of a clinic I went to once where two very young woman were playing as a classical duet, at some point they were asked about meeting guys and one of them said " yeah, all we meet are chubby, old guys filing their nails..."

You coulda heard a pin drop.....I thought their rep was gonna keel over right then and there.

[Amanda Gregg]

Edited

Now, to the discussion?

[bigskygirl]

Stand or sit close to a wall so that your fingers can't fly off the fretboard too high. I was fortunate to have a guitar teacher early on that emphasized keeping your fingers quiet.

I often watch banjo players......does that make me weird......?.....their freting hand fingers are very calm as they play, Alan Munde is the most relaxed dude I've ever seen when it comes to quiet fingers while playing.

[Amanda Gregg]

I often watch banjo players...their freting hand fingers are very calm as they play, Alan Munde is the most relaxed dude I've ever seen when it comes to quiet fingers while playing.

This reminds me of another piece of advice: keep your hands in chords/double-stop shapes as you move through a melody. This has been very helpful to me as well.

[clobflute]

I have the same problem. When I look at really seasoned mandolin players, it seems like they keep their fingers really close to the strings; maybe they don't even use the little baby pinky finger and move fluidy. They must have a really low action mandolin to enable such speed, as well as finger strength. Fingers fly to gain the pressure x velocity effect to hammer down the string onto the fret to stop it buzzing for beginners like me. If you strengthen your fingers with a varigrip, you'll notice a difference in two months?

[avaldes]

Take video of yourself, and compare it to carefully observed video of top players to see if you have a problem. If your fingers don't fly more than theirs, then I would say it ain't broke.
I will be somewhat contrarian (yes, I am an old dude) but I would concentrate on relaxing the fingers that are not fretting a note, as opposed to holding chord shape. Holding the shape with a soft, relaxed hand is OK I suppose, but keeping tension all the time cannot be good. With respect to advocates of grip exercisers, they work for some, but I would be very careful of injury. You don't need finger velocity unless you are hammering on a note. Otherwise, good technique can get a clean note with a lot less force than you think.
As to range of motion and injury, more motion may be a good thing. Classical guitarists (guilty) are taught on free stroke and arpeggios to bring the right hand fingers all the way to the palm in exercises if not in actual playing. The left hand technique is "minimum motion principle", which is some version of avoiding flying fingers. But I think the problem is when the fingers rigidly point away from the fingerboard, rather than failing to hold them within 1mm of a string.

[bigskygirl]

This reminds me of another piece of advice: keep your hands in chords/double-stop shapes as you move through a melody. This has been very helpful to me as well.

I don't so much keep my hand in a chord shape as I try think ahead in the tune and decide how to finger a run or what shapes I'm going to use. I think this only comes (for me anyway) after many repetitions of the tune. If I let my mind wander that's usually when I crash. I'm not saying to stay laser-focused but for me I have to concentrate to a certain degree or I forget what comes next......or, maybe it's just old age.....I'm not an old dude, just an old biddy....ha

[little george]

You might become rich adapting this: http://charlwood.com.au/classical-fi...eaching-guard/ to our beloved mandolins

[Ma.Mando]

Hey Amanda,

I'm really glad you brought this up. I notice it in the video you posted and its been on mind since.
I too had that problem on the guitar. Many years ago I enrolled at Berklee thinking "yeah I can play" well I soon found out I didn't know squat. The first two things to fix was the thumb placement and keeping the fingers over the strings.
If you have taken lessons I'm surprised it wasn't addressed but if self taught I'm not. It's one of those things that one may not pick up from a book.
But you do understand how important it is and you will correct it .

I've been playing and taking mandolin lessons for 4 months and the left hand technique and alternate picking are two areas I've been mindful of from the start. It's just a matter of retraining you hand.

This is one exercise that I was taught
For one string - will use the D string
1.Fret the E with your 1st finger
2. Keeping the first finger down fret the F with your 2nd finger
3. Keeping both fingers down fret the G with your 3rd finger
4. Keeping the 3 fingers down fret the G# 4th finger

note: when fretting a note the other fingers should be over(just above)the fret that they will cover.
This makes sense on the guitar because of the one finger one fret rule. For the mandolin you can change it up by playing F or F# with the 2nd finger or used the 4th finger on the 5th fret.

That's the easy part. Reverse the order. It can be tricky to control the little finger. It may want to fly off and it may feel awkward.

Next up -scales
When traversing the neck all the fingers move together.
Play a G scale. Keep the fingers behind a fretted note down. And again non fretted fingers need to be over the strings.

Finally using this technique play Irish tunes.They will help you develop the speed you are looking for.

Hope this helps.

[JeffJones]

Everything in Ma.Mando's post is gold. I was going to suggest something similar, but I think that post said it much better that I would have.

I would maybe just add a step zero to Ma.Mando's list;

0. Bring your left hand up to ready position and then hover your fingers, as best you can, over the position they are going to be fretting for the exercise, and then relax into that position.

That position is really what you want your fingers to learn. That should, more or less, be your starting point and ending point for all left hand finger movement. Fingers curved around close(~ish) to the string and relaxed, not straightened out away from the strings. You would also want to be making a point of relaxing, as much as possible, at each step along the way.

[JeffD]

I learned it taking fiddle lessons. My teacher was classical, and keeping fingers down was everything for a long time. I got into the habit and it transferred to mandolin.

I know this is true because the tunes on which I still struggle to keep my fingers down are tunes I learned before I took up the fiddle.

[swampstomper]

I am surprised none of the above good advice has mentioned a key point to solving FF -- namely keep fingers down, once they are down, until they need to be lifted. In this way the "back" fingers on a string are already in place when the "front" fingers are fretting and releasing. Even better is to put all the fingers you will need down on the string at the same time. Think "Devil's Dream": place both the 3rd (5th fret) and 2nd (4th fret) down at the same time. Play the A/G#/A by just lifting the 3rd finger and re-placing it. Lift both together to get the open E. Repeat.

I also find FFcP an excellent exercise, using the same technique. When the "upper" fingers are off the strings, try to keep them "hovering" over the right spot, anticipating where they will be placed when fretting.

The pinky is impossible to control precisely because of the linked muscles with the ring finger, but practice (FFcP) makes more or less perfect. I watch videos of fiddlers holding a position with 3 fingers and then working that pinky to get the highest note. It does tend to "fly" more than the other fingers, even with real pros.

Watching banjo players does show how little they move the left hand finger but they have such light strings that it is not much help with our two-course, high-tension strings.

[bratsche]

You might become rich adapting this: http://charlwood.com.au/classical-fi...eaching-guard/ to our beloved mandolins

Yeah... just get the right size rubber bands to fit around different sized fists loosely enough to give the fingers freedom to move just the correct amount, package them attractively, include pro endorsements, and call it something like the "Roosting Fingers Mandolin Teaching Guard", and voila, you can sell 'em like hotcakes!


bratsche

[Ivan Kelsall]

The one 'top player' who for me,personifies the 'flying finger' concept,is Ronnie McCoury. His fingers fly around like demented bats at times,but they keep on hitting the right notes. Unless your current technique is really causing you a problem go with it. I'm certainly not saying that you shouldn't correct your technique if it really is a problem,but if it's not ..... Regarding ''the time in your life..."
business,that's possibly a long way off & very likely,if you do have any hand problems,they won't be down to your mandolin technique. Those things creep up on folk who've never touched a string instrument in their lives,
Ivan

[Beanzy]

What's really done the trick for me is a combination of

Playing exercises to prepare for duo-style pieces. Pettine has a DuoStyle Primer I use as well as Gertrud Weyhofen's "Technique on Eight Strings" (I & II)

Jetro Burns books were and are a real help here too as he seems to base many of his picking-patterns out of smart use of leaving fingers down.

Using my pinky to damp strings and making sure it was mostly held close hovering over the G or D course.
The other fingers tend to stay low once you get used to controlling the little finger. Initially it seems rediculously difficult to just leave it relax there and it'll snap down at the most inopportune moments, especially if you think about it. I think the little finger is pretty basic in the signals it responds to so you need to put in work to get it anyway fine-tuned.

Very much a work in progress all this although 'flying fingers' is no longer a problem, proper control needs more work for me.

[AlanN]

I'll third the idea of keeping fingers down when ascending/descending the fingerboard. The pickers who do this are the ones you say 'they make it look so easy' when you see them pick. Butch was a huge proponent of this. And then there are guys like Ronnie M. - go figure. Jethro had terrific technique. Jethro's Tune starts with all fingers down on the E string to do that awesome pull-off he does.

[Tom C]

I learned it taking fiddle lessons. My teacher was classical, and keeping fingers down was everything for a long time. I got into the habit and it transferred to mandolin.

I know this is true because the tunes on which I still struggle to keep my fingers down are tunes I learned before I took up the fiddle.

Absolutely. hard to do as taught though. Barry Mitterhoff is the perfect picture of efficiency. He makes it look so easy but I find it takes a lot of finger independency to achieve this level. Lifting 1 finger while keeping others down. Knowing if you coming back to that note...etc

[SincereCorgi]

They don't have them at bluegrass jams where you are? LOL

Sorry, perhaps, "oldER dudes" would be better? I'm a 28 year old female, victim to much mansplaining.

Well, little lady, I imagine your left hand position in subtly influenced by your incessant thoughts of, say crocheting, or tying pretty bows into a pony's mane...

'Flying fingers' is an issue with literally every instrument I can think of except percussion and voice, and I don't think there's a easy fix for it. For me, mirror practice and a timer give me the best results. Set the timer to go off every X minutes, and check to see whether your hand position has reverted to sloppiness. It's a drag but it works for a lot of stuff. Try to position yourself at an angle to the mirror where it's most obvious what your left hand fingers are doing; this is not the same angle as for checking out your right hand technique. It's easier for violin because you can literally see how high your fingers are getting.

[Jim Garber]

I am surprised that, other than Mr. Corgi above, no one mentioned the low tech solution of playing in a mirror. Plenty of other costily and odd contraptions but not that.

In addition, what I would also suggest is to slow whatever you are playing and be mindful of keeping your fingers in the proper position. You may not really need to play anything special -- just play some of the pieces/tunes you are most familiar with -- ones you have performed and play them slowly in the mirror watching your hands. In fact, the more I think of it, the more I think it is better to play the most familiar ones -- so you are the most relaxed -- but re-learn them without the flying fingers.

You are an excellent player from what I see on your videos. I know you can do it.

[sgrexa]

I took a few classical lessons from a brilliant domra player in Philadelphia named Tamara Asta. This was the first thing she pointed out to me after watching me play for a few minutes. She was brutally insistent on keeping all four fingers as close to the strings as possible and in the proper position at all times. I think the best thing you can do is be cognizant of this bad habit and try to put this into practice at all times. One of the exercises she suggested was to use your pinky to hit notes at the 7th fret instead of an open string on tunes you already know. This can be difficult but it will force you to think about what you are doing and you will gain dexterity in the pinky dept. for sure! As Tom C. mentioned above, leaving fingers in place on notes that you will be coming back to very shortly takes some practice and getting used to but becomes easier with time. You are so young and have time on your side so it is good that you are recognizing these things early before they really become entrenched. I am one of the "old dudes" that learned a lot of things the wrong way and am now paying the price! Tim O'Brien is the master of finger efficiency IMO:



Sean

[Amanda Gregg]

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions and encouragement. I will keep you updated on my progress!!

[Ivan Kelsall]

The ''flying fingers'' scenario is a parallel to the wrist movement one.Some players hardly move their wrist at all, & others like Sam Bush, have their whole arm moving up & down like a pump handle.I know that SB has a physical problem that requires him to play like that,but he gets it done & so do others. If ''whatever way works for us'' stick with it IMHO - it's the music that's important, not the technique. I'm waiting for the super picker with flying fingers & a right arm that moves like a steam train piston - now that's action !,
One thing - IMHO, you'll never have a super efficient left hand technique like Tim O. if you have a medium to high string action. There's too much left hand downwards pressure required & of course the corresponding movement of lifting the fingers off again.If you have a fairly low action you're fine,
Ivan