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Thread: Any thoughts on provenance?

  1. #1
    Registered User Mike Romkey's Avatar
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    Default Any thoughts on provenance?

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    Thought to be 1920s F5-style Gibson, but the script is unfamiliar. Mandolin does not appear to be bound. Copy?
    '20 Ellis A5 Tradition, '09 Gilchrist Model 1, “July 9” Red Diamond F-5, '12 Duff F-5, '19 Collings MT2, ’24 A2-Z, ’24 F-2, '13 Collings mandola, '82 D-35, Gibson Keb Mo. http://www.bucktownrevue.com

  2. #2
    Registered User Mike Romkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any thoughts on provenance?

    The scroll. Appears to be a copy. Might be a '20s case, though. Or am I missing something?

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    '20 Ellis A5 Tradition, '09 Gilchrist Model 1, “July 9” Red Diamond F-5, '12 Duff F-5, '19 Collings MT2, ’24 A2-Z, ’24 F-2, '13 Collings mandola, '82 D-35, Gibson Keb Mo. http://www.bucktownrevue.com

  3. #3

    Default Re: Any thoughts on provenance?

    Is there a serial number anywhere? If so, a call to Gibson could give you some history on the instrument. (You may have thought of this already.)

    As to whether it is a copy or not, I'm not an expert so I can't say!
    Proud owner of a Breedlove Premier Series Limited Edition FF!

  4. #4

    Default Re: Any thoughts on provenance?

    Not sure of the facts, but I don't think Gibson started using red Krylon until 1972...

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  6. #5
    Registered User Mike Romkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any thoughts on provenance?

    No serial number.
    '20 Ellis A5 Tradition, '09 Gilchrist Model 1, “July 9” Red Diamond F-5, '12 Duff F-5, '19 Collings MT2, ’24 A2-Z, ’24 F-2, '13 Collings mandola, '82 D-35, Gibson Keb Mo. http://www.bucktownrevue.com

  7. #6
    Registered User Rex Hart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any thoughts on provenance?

    Hey Mike! I don't know about the mandolin (although the script does not look right) but I used to live and go to school in Pleasant Valley just outside of Bettendorf. There didn't used to be much of a Bluegrass scene in the Quad Cities when I was there in the 70's. Are there more pickers up there now?
    08' Gibson Fern
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    Registered User rockies's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any thoughts on provenance?

    I know I'm getting old and the eyesight is questionable but do I see the back of the neck on the same side of body as the "F" holes instead of a fretboard or neck surface G Maybe it's apart and the top is just laying on the back ? Someone with younger eyes maybe correct me. Thanks
    Dave
    Heiden A, '52 Martin D-18, Taylor 510, Carlson Custom A with Electronics

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    Registered User rockies's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any thoughts on provenance?

    On 2nd thought it can't be that as the body has a left and right side, it looks to me like it's a Siminoff type neck joint not a dovetail and the neck is in upside down.
    Dave
    Heiden A, '52 Martin D-18, Taylor 510, Carlson Custom A with Electronics

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    Wood and Wire Perry Babasin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any thoughts on provenance?

    That scroll looks like the Pillsbury Dough-Boy. The ff holes and all details are funky and sloppy, and no binding. I'm thinking old fake - or at the very least, bad new top. The headstock looks squirrely too like a Sam Bush wanna-be! Don't know about the case. Even considering the condition this does not exhibit Gibson elegance IMHO...
    ===================================
    ... I'm a California Man!

  11. #10

    Default Re: Any thoughts on provenance?

    Quote Originally Posted by rockies View Post
    I know I'm getting old and the eyesight is questionable but do I see the back of the neck on the same side of body as the "F" holes instead of a fretboard or neck surface G Maybe it's apart and the top is just laying on the back ? Someone with younger eyes maybe correct me. Thanks
    Dave
    My eyes are both well over 50, but I think the missing fingerboard is what you are seeing...or rather not seeing.

    I'm sure that mandolin is a much nicer speciman than anything I could build on my best day. So...not to criticize, but judging by the body-scroll alone, I doubt the builder was quite up to the Gibson level.

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  13. #11
    Wood and Wire Perry Babasin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any thoughts on provenance?

    I'm sorry, I didn't intend to hurt anyone's feelings criticizing the build, I was just concerned that someone was perhaps trying to sell this as a Gibson and I highly doubt that it is. Years ago I was taken in by a vague ebay ad for a (faked) Gibson which was being offered by a respected Bluegrasser. In the process I realized that it was fake but ended up buying it anyway because of it's "provenance" and the fact that it was a "pretty good" mandolin. BTW the ebay pictures of my mandolin looked amazing! I later realized that I could have bought a used Collings A model for what I paid for the 70s Gibson "tribute". Just throwing in my $.02 to maybe help someone not make the same mistake...
    ===================================
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  14. #12

    Default Re: Any thoughts on provenance?

    Hey Perry, We were both busy typing at the same time. I didn't even see your post until after punching the 'reply' button.
    You're right though...I can definitely see the Pillsbury influence!

    Cheers,

    Clark

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  16. #13
    Registered User rockies's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any thoughts on provenance?

    Flatrock Hill, of course you are correct, I should have enlarged the photo. At first glance the insert looked like the curved back of a neck. At 75+ years for my body and 19 years in my mind my eyes I guess are at 95 years LOL.
    Dave
    Heiden A, '52 Martin D-18, Taylor 510, Carlson Custom A with Electronics

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    Registered User Mike Romkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any thoughts on provenance?

    Rex: There are a few pickers here, in Muscatine, and in Iowa City. We're trying to grow the scene. The internet (FB, online lessons, this Cafe site) is making it a lot easier for people to connect. You can drop me an email at mgromkey@gmail.com if you want to chat, or get me at FB. Cheers.
    '20 Ellis A5 Tradition, '09 Gilchrist Model 1, “July 9” Red Diamond F-5, '12 Duff F-5, '19 Collings MT2, ’24 A2-Z, ’24 F-2, '13 Collings mandola, '82 D-35, Gibson Keb Mo. http://www.bucktownrevue.com

  18. #15

    Default Re: Any thoughts on provenance?

    Of course I know nothin' about scrolls but in the experts absence I will respond with TANPON IMHO!

  19. #16
    Registered User Hendrik Ahrend's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any thoughts on provenance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Romkey View Post
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    Thought to be 1920s F5-style Gibson, but the script is unfamiliar. Mandolin does not appear to be bound. Copy?
    Copy, no doubt: no ph binding, ph scroll not cut deep enough, script is a non-slanted (that is rare) and rough copy of the pre '22 (=pre F5) open style, no fern or flower pot.

  20. #17
    Registered User Hendrik Ahrend's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any thoughts on provenance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Romkey View Post
    The scroll. Appears to be a copy. Might be a '20s case, though. Or am I missing something?

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    Mike, you're not missing anything. Case should be Gibson, all else a rough copy. Basically none of the details are Gibson-related: Wrong neck set, scroll and f-holes cut completely off, no neck extension, upper body point too short and wrong shape, f-holes too close together, no binding &c.
    Don't know the provenance, though.

  21. #18
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any thoughts on provenance?

    There's no need to call Gibson. Congratulations though, the case is worth a few bucks.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  22. #19
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any thoughts on provenance?

    Technically, Provenance is a documentation stream, a proof positive way to ascertain past history ..

    little late to get that now. ..

    but good luck with our Mandolin in the rough Project ..
    writing about music
    is like dancing,
    about architecture

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    Default Re: Any thoughts on provenance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Eagle View Post
    Mike, you're not missing anything. Case should be Gibson, all else a rough copy. Basically none of the details are Gibson-related: Wrong neck set, scroll and f-holes cut completely off, no neck extension, upper body point too short and wrong shape, f-holes too close together, no binding &c.
    Don't know the provenance, though.
    Henry, I think this is a 1928ish F2, with a very bad top put on the original body.
    Ken

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any thoughts on provenance?

    Quote Originally Posted by rockies View Post
    Flatrock Hill, of course you are correct, I should have enlarged the photo. At first glance the insert looked like the curved back of a neck.
    Too bad, I really thought someone had tried to make a copy for a left-handed person...
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

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    Registered User Hendrik Ahrend's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any thoughts on provenance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Waltham View Post
    Henry, I think this is a 1928ish F2, with a very bad top put on the original body.
    Ken
    Thanks, Ken, for suggesting this. You might actually be right. And of course, Gibson apparently used pre-'22 script inlays in the late '20s. But the upper body point and the body scroll cut-out just look so strange; I wonder what the back looks like.
    Here's a '29 F2 from the MA:
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    Mandogenerator Mike Black's Avatar
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    Default Re: Any thoughts on provenance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Waltham View Post
    Henry, I think this is a 1928ish F2, with a very bad top put on the original body.
    Ken
    I agree with Ken. I saw this in the classifieds the other day and that's the exact same thing that I thought. Especially with the picture of the fingerboard lying on the top at the 15th fret and the fingerboard stretching a fret and half past the nut.

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