Help with Chop Chord Licks

[MMBsman777]

So, my difficulty is that I am having trouble understanding how the tag endings actually correlate with the "G" and "C" form chop chords. The instructions seem to imply that I should be able to just move a "G" or "C" form Chop up/down the fretboard and be able to play the tag ending, but this doesn't really seem to work. I have based the moving of my chop chords around the treble root note and can't find or see how the tag endings relate to chop chord forms. I can definitely see how they relate to their respective major scale forms, but that is it. Any help sorting this out would be appreciated. I would just call up my mando instructor, but he is on tour in Ireland until July...Image of tag endings is from Fretboard Roadmaps for Mandolin. Thanks again, everyone!

[mando.player]

I think they are trying to explain how the closed patterns can be moved up/down the fretboard and up/down the string sets. The examples in the attachment show the same patterns played out of the A and D chop positions. You have to move out of position to hit those 9th fret notes, but you basically stay camped in the position.
A Position:
-5-
-4-
-7-
-X-

D Position:
-X-
-5-
-4-
-7-

As illustrated in the attachment, the A pattern can be moved on the string set (down) and now it's in the key of D. Once the pattern is memorized it can be moved down the fretboard and played in the G and C positions.
G Position:
-3-
-2-
-5-
-X-

C Position:
-X-
-3-
-2-
-5-

Does that make sense?

[MMBsman777]

Yes, I do understand the idea that the chop form is being moved down a string to get the "D" chord (Or up/down the fretboard if needed.) I was just under the impression that the chop form could be moved as a unit up or down the fretboard and it would happen to cover the fingerings they are giving in the tag endings (If that makes sense.) But, if it is meant more loosely as you seem to imply, then I can work with that by trying to move as few fingers away from my chop form as possible while still playing the tag ending. Sometimes less words does not equal better communication, ya know? Lol! Too bad instructional book writers don't always get that.

[MMBsman777]

Yes, I do understand the idea that the chop form is being moved down a string to get the "D" chord (Or up/down the fretboard if needed.) I was just under the impression that the chop form could be moved as a unit up or down the fretboard and it would happen to cover the fingerings they are giving in the tag endings (If that makes sense.) But, if it is meant more loosely as you seem to imply, then I can work with that by trying to move as few fingers away from my chop form as possible while still playing the tag ending. Sometimes less words does not equal better communication, ya know? Lol! Too bad instructional book writers don't always get that.

[MMBsman777]

Which I suppose means they are merely trying to set you up for the idea that Chords are built out of scales. Which I already knew. Btw, where is the delete post button? Need to remove that redundant post.

[JeffJones]

I think you may be overthinking this. These licks are based around, or located on the fingerboard, around the A chord (using the "G" shape for the licks in the first line) or the D chord (using the "C" shape for the licks in the second line).



I circled the notes in the licks that should correspond the notes of the A or D chord these licks are based on. When you play these licks you should use the same fingers for those notes that you would use to play those chop chords.


A Chord (for the lick's on the first line)

| | | |

-------

| | I |  4

-------

| | | M  5

-------

| | | |

-------

| R | |  7

-------

| | | |

-------

| | | |

So, the above A chop chord("G" shape) would be your starting point to play the first lick on the first line:

|-5-9-5-------|------------|

|-------7-5-4-|------------|

|-------------|-7----------|

|-------------|------------|

  M L M R M I  R

The fingering for notes that are shared with the chord shaped are bold.

Thats all they are trying to illustrate, the connection between the chord and the lick. If you can think of these licks in relation to the chord shape then you can use these licks anywhere you can play the chords.

Yes, the lick is made up of notes from the A scale(for the examples on the first line). But that is somewhat incidental to what they are trying to illustrate here.

Yes, the chord is made up of notes from the A scale(for the examples on the first line), But again, that is somewhat incidental to what they are trying to illustrate here.

Clear as mud?

[MMBsman777]

Eh, muddy as clear...I don't understand what I should be doing with the fingering of notes that fall outside of the chord shape. How SHOULD I be playing those? Sliding the chord form up/down the neck or simply picking it as I would a melody w/o chord shapes?

[MMBsman777]

So, to put it another way, should I be moving the chord and playing within it or should I be keeping my fingers planted as much as possible in the chord shape and only moving the fingers necessary to play around the chord shape?

[RobP]

You don't need to maintain the chord when doing these licks... someone else in the band will be playing the chord. Just use the visual chord shape as a frame of reference so you can move the licks around to different locations.

[JeffJones]

How SHOULD I be playing those? Sliding the chord form up/down the neck

No.

Just to be clear, I think you are asking if you should lock your fingers into the "G" or "D" shape and then drag that whole shape around the neck to get to all the notes. Do not do that. The chord shape is your conceptual starting point and you will reuse some of the same notes and fingerings that are part of the chord within the lick, but just as individual notes. Don't try to drag the whole chord shape around to get to all the notes. You may in some cases start in or finish with the full chord related to the lick, but in other cases you will just play the notes of the lick.

How SHOULD I be playing those? ...
or simply picking it as I would a melody w/o chord shapes?

Yes, this is basically correct. With the caveat that your fongerings of the individual notes of the lick should match up with the fingerings of those same notes in the related chord.

Take a look at the opening lick on this video.



He is playing a variation of the licks you have here. Notice how he is using his fingers, fingerings from the chord shape but he is not tied to playing the full chord shape.

I gave you most of the fingerings you need in my last post. The only other note you need is the 3rd fret note and you can just slide your index finger back to grab that note when it shows up. Just go through and transfer the fingering from the lick I tabbed out to all the others and start trying them out. I think it will make more sense when you start playing it.

[Beanzy]

It may help to think of it in addition to the chord shape as a way to get you to leave your fingers down until they're needed somewhere else. This can make things quick and efficient giving you a secure base from which you're playing the lick.

In this case they're using the chord shape as a guide to what fingers to use on which string.
For the extra notes of the lick you just flick the necessary finger down but leave the rest stay put in your chord shape until you need them elsewhere to shift chord or place on the neck. By getting you to think in chord shapes they've created a short-cut to getting your fingers quickly in position without having to go into complex descriptions of what goes where..... so I will

So you can see in the first bar that the fingers you'll leave down are middle finger 5th fret on the E course (just flick up with the little finger to get the 9th fret then off so you're back on the 5th)
Then on the A course you'd already have the 4th fret (index finger) in place and just rip it back from 7th (little finger) via 5th (middle or ring finger) to the waiting 4th fret index.
For the note on the D string they're expecting you to use the ring finger from your chord shape.

I think this might be called second +1/2 position, as it's between the normal II and the III with index on 5th fret, but saying that would scare most folks, myself included and it's supposed to be a short-cut for clarity and speed.

[MMBsman777]

Thank you all! I get it! I will work out the fingerings over my next few practice sessions. The chord shape is a guide and home base for quickly getting the notes out. Now that I understand that the rest should fall into place with practice. Though it will probably feel a little tedious at first. I will live, though. Seeing that video really helped and that actually helped me realize I have seen many players do that exact thing. It makes sense, though, just makes life easier once you learn it. Thanks again!

[MMBsman777]

On a totally unrelated note- Ronnie seems "very excited" to be doing that video lesson, lol! Maybe him and his Dad don't get along so well...