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Thread: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

  1. #1
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    I just saw these listed on Roger's site as well as in the classified. I am not quite so sure what his description means or how he controls the downward pressure and what the theory is for doing this. Some of you physics and acoustics majors might chime in. I have a feeling that this could be yet another Blue Chip-style thread.

    Also... Roger doesn't tell us what the composition of these strings are. The price for a single pack is not on that page but if you put it into the cart it comes up as $8.95.

    Straight Up Strings is an exciting new development in mandolin string technology that features compensated download pressures for the strings that rest on the saddle near the post (E and G) compared to those that rest in the middle of the saddle (A and D) on conventional two-post adjustable bridges. Balanced lateral loading provides excellent string-to-string balance, clarity, and sustain. Wound strings feature phosphor bronze wrap wire. The ideal solution for a balanced-sounding mandolin. Gauges are: E . 0115˝, A .016˝, D .024˝, G .039˝. Down pressures: E 5.5 lbs., A4 lbs., D 4 lbs., and G 6.5 lbs. Currently available in "medium" with "light" and "heavy" gauged sets to follow in near future.
    Last edited by Jim Garber; Jun-05-2014 at 10:48am.
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  3. #2

    Default Re: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    Interesting, thanks for pointing these out. I think I'll be checking them out. I'm sort of a string freak, I love trying out different strings and hearing the major differences they have to offer.

    I have to say I found any strings that sound better than exp77s though so they're gonna have to be pretty good to become my main strings.

    Thanks for letting us know about the price too

  4. #3
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    This is an attempt to put in clearer words what is happening here:
    The gauges of the outer courses E and G are slightly heavier than they'd be compared to the inner course gauges in a normal set of strings. Thus, the outer strings have a higher tension, yielding a higher down pressure at the saddle than the inner strings.

    Two things remain unclear to me: what problem this is supposed to solve, and how one can quote explicit down pressure values in lbs without knowing the exact scale length and the string angle at the saddle.
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    Default Re: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    Not sure if you guys saw this thread over in the News Forum but there is quite a bit more information here:

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...58#post1294558

    and in the linked article here:

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/news/pub...s_001640.shtml

    Bertram, I think both your questions are covered, at least in part, in the article.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    Thanks, Jeff. I should have read that thread and the article. It makes a bunch more sense now.

    I also read too quickly... he does say that these are phosphor bronze and now I do see the price on his site. I will prob order some to try for sure.
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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    Yep Jeff, that clears it up considerably. What's more, I suddenly unterstand the weird shape of the violin bridge - 45 years after playing the violin, figure that...
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    Registered User Hendrik Ahrend's Avatar
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    Default Re: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    I've been observing and mostly admiring Roger's science since the days of Frets. But sometimes he loses me, and I dare say the emporer is naked in this case. He talks about "string-to-string balance, clarity, and sustain", which may or may not be desirable. But what if I had a mandolin with an outstanding e-string and all other strings average? Would the a-string all of a sudden sound just as great, as soon as I chose 0.011.5 for e and 0.016 for a? Or the other way around, what if my e-string was weak, lacking "clarity" and "sustain". Would the new Siminoff set do away with that or even touch the issue?
    I actually fooled around with various gauges of e and a-strings, and I finally settled with 0.011 and 0.016, feeling that not only the tension is quite similar, but also the "timbre". (And my mando is a pretty regular F5 BTW.)
    Nothing is as practical as a good theory.
    Last edited by Hendrik Ahrend; Jun-05-2014 at 4:58pm.

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    Default Re: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    On a scale of 1 to 10, I would give a 6 to my understanding of Roger's article. I read it twice and that helped. The parts that I understood sort of made sense.

    I "pre-ordered" some. It's worth a try. I pretty happy with my J74s, though.

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    formerly Philphool Phil Goodson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    I just re-read the interview.
    I'd love to see the data and results that ended up with conclusions like:

    "... For fixed-bridge guitars, the string-to-string tensions should be either very similar or linear ...., or mapped in a somewhat parabolic curve...."

    I'd think that "similar" or "linear" or "parabolic" would be very different things. How does the data help us pick???
    Last edited by Phil Goodson; Jun-08-2014 at 6:56pm.
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    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
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    Default Re: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    I think the idea is that this may be similar to the floor joists in your home. Some joists may be taking a lot of weight while one next to it may be barely touch the subfloor, thus having less weight on it. The joist under more stress would "react" with greater energy versus the one with less energy.

    I dunno though. Perhaps having less tension on one string, like the A and D strings actually sounds better than more tension. I think the end result is the same as trying a new set of strings, or a new pick - that tone is subjective and it may or may not sound better.

  14. #11

    Default Re: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    I ordered a set and am anxious to try them. Will report back.
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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    Quote Originally Posted by fscotte View Post
    I dunno though. Perhaps having less tension on one string, like the A and D strings actually sounds better than more tension. I think the end result is the same as trying a new set of strings, or a new pick - that tone is subjective and it may or may not sound better.
    If I understand the article correctly, it hints at buying and combining single strings to optimize the load distribution being better than buying ready sets. So I guess everybody is being invited to make their own experimental sets.
    Since I was forced to use single strings from the beginning with my ball-end-tailpieced OM, that phase lies behind me, and it took quite some time. I also guess that Siminoff's set is a valid shortcut if you have the kind of mandolin and bridge it is optimized for.
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    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Eagle View Post
    I've been observing and mostly admiring Roger's science since the days of Frets. But sometimes he loses me, and I dare say the emporer is naked in this case.
    Agree. I didn't want to be the first one to say that...
    Not everything that "makes sense" is really true. I've been doing exact sciences for 15 years now and I know that physics of forces and vibrations can be very misleading to laymen. I've seen all kinds of "sound bouncing" etc. theories over the years that may sound logical to common folks but are pure BS otherwise.
    Every mandolin is different and may require different combination of strings to please given player. So I guess Mr. Siminoff is offering solution to nonexistent problem. Or at least problem that exists on few mandolins he tested and with few players he tested...
    If there were such huge problem with strings someone would shout it loud years ago. I know more than few players who buy single strings and made up their own sets of strings and more or less they either ended close to typical sets or they changed a string or two to solve some anomaly of their favorite instrument.
    I'd love to hear Dave Cohen or other acoustics guys' opinion.
    Adrian

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    Registered User wildpikr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    Currently I use D'Addario J75's:
    G .041
    D .026
    A .016
    E .0115

    Mr. Siminoff's Straight-Up Mediums:
    G .039
    D .024
    A .016
    E .0115

    It's worth a try...
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    Registered User DougC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    If anything Roger 'has got our number'. We love to try out strings at Mandolin Cafe. I have a lot of respect for him however. And if he thinks this is a good idea, I'm willing to listen. But all string 'sets' are designed to address a number of issues, including the tension issue.

  20. #16
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    Quote Originally Posted by HoGo View Post
    So I guess Mr. Siminoff is offering solution to nonexistent problem. Or at least problem that exists on few mandolins he tested and with few players he tested...
    I'd not say nonexistent, but the effect will doubtless be a subtle one, nothing that knocks your socks off. I would probably not even hear it (I couldn't tell a Strad from any old cigar box, come to that), but that does not mean others can't hear it either. Let's wait for those double blind tests to commence.
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    Default Re: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    This is copied and pasted from his order page.....Are the +14.00 and +35.00 the shipping costs?? If so, I can afford the strings but not the shipping

    Single Pak

    Tri-Pak $22.95 (Save $3.90!) (+ $14.00)

    Six-Pak $43.95 (Save $9.75!) (+ $35.00)
    What The ....

  22. #18
    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    I don't need to understand 100 percent of something that doesn't make sense.

    f-d
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  23. #19
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    Quote Originally Posted by ourgang View Post
    This is copied and pasted from his order page.....Are the +14.00 and +35.00 the shipping costs?? If so, I can afford the strings but not the shipping

    Single Pak

    Tri-Pak $22.95 (Save $3.90!) (+ $14.00)

    Six-Pak $43.95 (Save $9.75!) (+ $35.00)
    The numbers following the plus sign are what you add to the single pack price of $8.95 to make a "pak". I think the shipping is around $8 on top of that.
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    Default Re: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    I just skimmed Roger's article, so I don't know if there is some new construction method for these strings or not. If not, then these should be similar to the GHS Bobby Osborne set. That set goes 0.011, 0.016, 0.024, 0.038.

    Also, back last winter I saw a youtube of Chris Thile talking about his string gauges. He uses the heavy treble strings from a J75 set and the medium gauge G and D from a J74 set. Kind of a similar concept, perhaps?

    I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to criticize Roger's theory without trying it out first. But I don't expect I'd hear a big difference. Maybe Chris Thile would though. Who knows?

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    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
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    Default Re: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    I think it works for Thile, cause man, he sounds TERRIBLE when he's not using his custom string gauges...

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    formerly Philphool Phil Goodson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    Quote Originally Posted by fscotte View Post
    I think it works for Thile, cause man, he sounds TERRIBLE when he's not using his custom string gauges...
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    Default Re: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    ...So G's have a bit thicker core wire, the steel part , and the winding wire can be thinner?

    got core wire winding wire size data? Gibson's are .041", over all, too ..
    how do they differ ?
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    Default Re: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    Jim G: Regarding the composition of our the strings, the material is "mandolin wire" for both the plain string and hex cores, and phosphor bronze alloy for the wrap wire.

    Bertram H: Thx for explanation. Only thing I can add is that our .016˝ has a different wrap/core than most other strings for a mandolin D string. And, we do report on the scale length and bridge height (expressed as "string break angle"), and as you suggest, both of these are critically important. Although loads can be calculated mathematically, we did actual measurements of all strings using a special fixture and a certified Dillon Force Gauge. All of the specifications and data can be found in our product bulletin which can be found at: http://siminoff.net/cms/wp-content/u...up_strings.pdf

    Henry E: Yes, our goal is to provide a set of strings whose interaction with the bridge makes each string produce similar timbre. In the example you gave, having an A (or other) string be more prominent than its neighboring strings is not an ideal situation, which is probably what led you to decide on the .011˝ and .016˝ for your mandolin.

    Philiphool: Thanks for picking up on the "similar" or "linear" or "parabolic" issue. I didn't go into more detail in that article because it was just a supporting note and not the theme of that article. Speaking about "tension" (the longitudinal load of the strings), based on the bridge design and construction, and based on the soundboard's design and construction - specifically the size, shape, composition, and location of the bridge plate, bracing, tone bars, and soundboard itself, some guitars lend themselves to string sets with similar tensions (i.e. each string within about 1 to 1.5 pounds of each other), or linear tensions (i.e. each string being about 1 to 1.5 pounds heavier than its neighbor either going up or down the string set), or a parabolic curve where the outer strings might have similar tension, and the next inner strings are slightly higher, and the two inner-most strings are slightly higher (or the reverse). (I'm currently consulting with a guitar company who is testing "similar" loads on one bracing design, and "linear" loads on another for both the strings they will install on new guitars as well as for some of their private label strings in a future announcement.)

    Fscotte: Interesting. I actually used the example of a trampoline the other day when speaking to someone about these new strings. I pointed to the difference between jumping in the center and near the frame of the trampoline, and suggested that a heavier person would need to jump near the frame and a lighter person near the center to reach the same height.

    HoGo: Actually, this is a very real problem. You are right that each mandolin has its own particular signature that needs tailoring when selecting strings, but this is typically impractical. For the masses, the industry provides an array of light, medium, and heavy gauge strings (without clearly defining what fits in those categories). For those of us who use the Gibson-style adjustable two-footed bridge, we can't escape the fact that the outer pair of strings have a very different relationship with the soundboard than do the two pair that hang in the middle of the saddle. In 1982, we proved to an audience of the world's most prominent string manufacturers that string tension made a difference, and from that day on, calculating and reporting string loads became an industry standard.

    Wildpikr: Thanks for showing the relative gauges. Please bear in mind that there are many ways to arrive at the same wound string gauges, i.e. different core to wrap ratios (see my response to @Mandroid below).

    Ourgang: Good call. The "+ $14.00" refers to how much more the Tri-Pak is than the single string price. It's confusing, but something out of our control (our on-line store software calculates this automatically when we show something as an option). We've added some text above it to clarify. Thx!

    Mandroid: Regarding core and wrap wire, there are several ways to prepare a wound string. For example, we can make the .026˝ as a .014˝ core (the steel center wire) with a .006˝ wrap wire (the phosphor bronze wire) - .014 + .006 + .006 = .026˝, or .016 + .005 + .005˝ = .026˝ and so on. Each of these will yield a .026˝ finished thickness but the tensions will be very different when the string is at pitch. Of course, there are only a small range of variations you can make before the string is unplayably too light or too heavy.

    Best,
    Roger

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    Default Re: Siminoff's Straight Up Strings

    OK, I have been playing mandolin for a long time and I always thought that the D strings and the A strings sound fine. I have never noticed them lacking compared to the G and E strings. In fact I remember years ago at a bluegrass club night there was this old guy with a Nuggett and he saw my new mandolin. He told me to pick the D strings for him. He said the way to tell how a good mandolin sounds is by picking the D strings. And I think he is right. On all the mandolins I have owned the D strings always sound the best to me. They just pop out. So to me that kind of takes away from Mr Siminoff's idea. I don't think I will pay $17.00 just to hear how they sound. But good luck to Mr Siminoff.
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