Recording mandolin - dealing with breath noise

[Avi Ziv]

Hi folks,

I'm doing a home recording of solo mandolin (me playing) and working on a very slow and sparse piece - an Irish air. The setup is an LCD cardioid mic (KSM27) about 18" in front of the mandolin. Due to the high sensitivity of the mic, I can hear myself breathing during the piece. It's not that loud but the piece is so sparse that at least I (as the performer and engineer) can hear it and I'm trying to think what methods can be used to eliminate or at least reduce it.

I tried changing my breathing pattern to time it but it's distracting and effects the performance. Maybe it's a necessary skill?

I tried breathing through my mouth rather than through my nose but that is also distracting although it helps a little sound-wise.

I managed to reduce it some with gentle EQ in the right freq range (somewhere in the 2-5K) but I can only do so much before it starts hurting the sound. I can automate the EQ to be more surgical about it.

I tried placing the mic higher and angling it down towards the mandolin to get the breath out of the main pickup pattern. However, I am trying to capture the sound of the instrument as it "blooms", hence the 18". So angling is not effective either. Maybe I sould try an even farther distance and reduce the breath noise that way? Haven't tried that yet. The mic is hot enough and I have plenty of clean gain.

I have not tried any of the good noise reduction plugins like Izotope RX and I'm curious if it can be more effective than the EQ.

Have you ever dealt with this problem?

Thanks

[Jim]

How long can you hold your breath? Seriously I think the increased distance might help along with eq but breath timing is your best bet. I have problems with my LDC mics picking up very subtle noise from a road quite some distance away that you don't notice while doing the recording but hear on playback.

[Spruce]

Play with your mouth open?

[bratsche]

If it's an audio recording only (no video), could you improvise some sort of sound baffle to hang in front of your face?

bratsche

[Tavy]

If it's an audio recording only (no video), could you improvise some sort of sound baffle to hang in front of your face?

?

[Marc Katz]

maybe position a music stand or a piece of plexiglass so it redirects your breath?

[allenhopkins]

Two related but distinct possibilities:

1. Your breath is actually hitting the microphone. That can be corrected by a variety of strategies, such as [a] turning your head away, [b] placing a windscreen over the mic, [c] putting a baffle between you and the mic, perhaps a "pop filter" which is readily available from Musician's Friend or other on-line sources, [d] relocating the mic lower, below the level of the mandolin, [e] moving the mic farther away, many others…

Assuming you've investigated that, there's

2. Your breath isn't hitting the mic, but it's picking up the sound of your breathing. More of a problem. Possible to EQ down the "breath range," but this may impact how the mandolin sounds. You might again try a windscreen or a baffle, or, since you have "plenty of clean gain," just reducing the recording volume. Honestly, you could try a surgical mask or a dust/microbe filtration mask, which might not eliminate the noise entirely but might reduce the volume sufficiently to be acceptable.

Play the recordings back at normal volume, and see if it's the problem you think it is. I did studio work a long time ago for a producer of commercials, who insisted the guitarists put talcum powder on their fretting hands to reduce the noise of callused fingers sliding on wound strings. I wondered at the time if anyone listening to a used-car dealer's commercial during the evening commute, would be put off by a few finger squeaks, but Earl was paying the bills -- and I was playing harmonica anyway...

[foldedpath]

Hi Avi! This is something we run into occasionally with the quieter instruments and more delicate musical numbers.

The first thing I'd try, although it will compromise the "bloom" effect and the capture of room acoustics, is just moving the mic a little closer to the mandolin. Maybe 10-12" instead of 18". And try a slight sideways angle of the mic to the front of the mandolin, so it's not pointing directly at your face. Getting the mic a little closer will improve the signal-to-noise ratio. A longer mic distance is theoretically better than close-mic'ing, especially when the room acoustics are good, but it doesn't always work for quieter pieces like this.

That mic, like many LD's, has a slight lift around 5-6k, so a little EQ dip in that area might help without compromising the mandolin too much. It sounds like you're already doing that.

I wouldn't try noise reduction for this, since your breathing will be irregular and the NR would probably be heard as a pumping effect on the music. It works best on constant background noise, and even then, it's a band-aid that shouldn't be used unless it's absolutely necessary to save a recording.

Finally, and don't laugh.... but I've heard of violinists stuffing loose cotton wads into their nostrils to reduce breath noise. That might be too distracting as you're playing, but hey... if it works....

[Avi Ziv]

Play the recordings back at normal volume, and see if it's the problem you think it is.

Allen - thanks for the brainstorm. I have not tried putting anything in front of my face to help the isolation but I may try it. However, this quoted statement actually is relevent in a way. See, my post was based on recording work I did from last night until 3am. Quiet house. I turned off the furnace and unplugged the refregirator. The noise floor was pretty good considering that this is a house and not a treated/soundproof studio. It is a fact though that both my headphones and my (revealing) monitors had this breathing apparent in the silence of the house. Heck, I was cursing the light bulbs which emit a very high pitch especially as they age.... it's true.

Now - new day. I tested the recording on my stereo system in a normal house environment and also in the car, mostly to see how it translated. What do you know? The ambient noise in a normal environment is higher than the breathing..... So maybe I was too concerned. But I still want better....

It's a good opportunity to think and talk about these things in the context of mandolins. I just came back from playing at my Irish session and, again, was reminded just how relatively soft this instrument is.

Thanks again

[Avi Ziv]

The first thing I'd try, although it will compromise the "bloom" effect and the capture of room acoustics, is just moving the mic a little closer to the mandolin. Maybe 10-12" instead of 18". And try a slight sideways angle of the mic to the front of the mandolin, so it's not pointing directly at your face. Getting the mic a little closer will improve the signal-to-noise ratio. A longer mic distance is theoretically better than close-mic'ing, especially when the room acoustics are good, but it doesn't always work for quieter pieces like this.

I have not had good luck with closer micing. I feel the need to capture the sound as it develops in front of the instrument. I like the sound in my room for this application and so I'm ok with being 18" away. Moreoever, previous experiments with closer micing (same recording chain) resulted in transients that were simply too strong. You would not want to be an audience member with your head 10" away from a mandolin. The impact is impressive. Once I created some distance, the balance of the transient to the sustained sound was much more musical to my ear so I'm reluctant to go back. Maybe a different mic would work better closer but not this.

That mic, like many LD's, has a slight lift around 5-6k, so a little EQ dip in that area might help without compromising the mandolin too much. It sounds like you're already doing that.

You are SO very correct! The gentle EQins was actually neneficial to the sound and at the same time tamed some of the breathing. The mic is pretty natural sounding but a little too bright for this mandolin in this space. So I'm ok with some EQ'ing.

I wouldn't try noise reduction for this, since your breathing will be irregular and the NR would probably be heard as a pumping effect on the music. It works best on constant background noise, and even then, it's a band-aid that shouldn't be used unless it's absolutely necessary to save a recording.

Makes sense. Thanks.

Finally, and don't laugh.... but I've heard of violinists stuffing loose cotton wads into their nostrils to reduce breath noise. That might be too distracting as you're playing, but hey... if it works....

If that works, I'll post a selfie

I'm thinking of using a little compression on the recording and I know that will raise the noise floor level so...it can sound worse after that. Need to consider my options to use on another take and/or just learn for other upcoming recordings.

Thanks for your help!

[Avi Ziv]

Ok I realize that this statement is made will not sound right to some of you "You would not want to be an audience member with your head 10" away from a mandolin. The impact is impressive. " because many players have mics right up against their mandolins. But those are likely to be dynamic mics. My recording chain with the mic too close to my instrument doesn't sound as good to my ears. For this piece I want a lot of ambiance. I'll take whatever the room has to give and still enhance some more at mixing time

[sunburst]

As someone who is a much better listener than player, and who has very little recording experience, I don't have any advise to offer, just a comment.
I own a few recordings with breath noises that are distracting, one in particular that is Hawaiian slack key guitar played by a very large fellow with somewhat "labored" breathing, but for the most part I kind of like to hear some sounds made by an actual human being. A few breaths, a chair/stool squeak, some finger "noise"... it makes the recording sound like it was played by an actual living musician. I find the deliberately recorded and featured gasps and "hiccups" of singers on some pop records very annoying, but that's different.
I don't know how much breath "noise" there is in your recording, and how much you consider to be too much, but it might be one of those things where you notice it more than others would listening to the same recording.

Do you ever do any dusty work and use a dust mask? I've used several kinds, including "procedure" or "surgical" masks that are available from any drug store. Perhaps one of those would soften the sound without being too much of a distraction.

[foldedpath]

Ok I realize that this statement is made will not sound right to some of you "You would not want to be an audience member with your head 10" away from a mandolin. The impact is impressive. " because many players have mics right up against their mandolins. But those are likely to be dynamic mics. My recording chain with the mic too close to my instrument doesn't sound as good to my ears. For this piece I want a lot of ambiance. I'll take whatever the room has to give and still enhance some more at mixing time

Nah, that's perfectly understandable, and it's the standard method for recording things like Classical music in a good environment.

The fad for close-mic'ing started when the price of pro-level recording gear started dropping in the digital era, but the people recording at home found out that they didn't have the room acoustics or ambient noise isolation to do anything except close-mic everything.

That said, the more the mics move away, the more you deal with things like ambient room reflections and whatever the musician is doing... like breathing. I had to ditch a couple of takes from a recent violinist recording because it was picking up squeaks from the chair he was sitting in. I had never had that problem before, but he's an animated performer when he plays, even sitting down, so the chair was a new thing to deal with. Next time we track, he'll be standing up.

[DougC]

For this piece I want a lot of ambiance. I'll take whatever the room has to give and still enhance some more at mixing time

If you are looking for perfection or the highest level of quality then it seems as though you have it. And the room itself is not good enough.

[almeriastrings]

One other idea that can certainly work... giving you both distance (avoiding close the close mic 'sound') and reducing breath noise is to use a figure-of-8 mic or hypercardiod set optimally. I like the Beyer M160 hypercardiod ribbon for this, though if you are also trying for room ambiance, it may not suit. Very smooth, nice, mic however, great on mandolin.

A lot of classical recordings are done with omni's, in a great space. You might actually find it worth exploring the possibility of take a portable rig into a really good room. Theaters, churches, synagogues... those kind of places. That way, you get some 'good' ambience. Trying to "fix it in the mix" is never a good strategy.

[mrmando]

I got some dust masks at Home Depot and wore one while recording.

[roysboy]

I got some dust masks at Home Depot and wore one while recording.

Yup ...this is a possible fix .... and a very inexpensive one.
Covering or partially covering your face with a ski mask or thin scarf may also work.
Is it possible to breath in tempo ? .. a little " organic percussion" might be interesting ....y'know ... breath a little life into the piece.....lol .
Best of luck and please let us know the outcome .....

[Avi Ziv]

....but for the most part I kind of like to hear some sounds made by an actual human being. A few breaths, a chair/stool squeak, some finger "noise"... it makes the recording sound like it was played by an actual living musician....
it might be one of those things where you notice it more than others would listening to the same recording.

Do you ever do any dusty work and use a dust mask? I've used several kinds, including "procedure" or "surgical" masks that are available from any drug store. Perhaps one of those would soften the sound without being too much of a distraction.

Thanks John - all valid points. I do have a couple of string squeaks in there and I don't mind them. I do have some dust masks and will give them a try as well. I also believe that I notice flaws in my work that others won't or wouldn't be bothered by as much. It's true for almost any personal work - right?

by the way - anyone who has been into jazz piano in the past 30 years might be familiar with Keith Jarrett's frustrating tendency to hum along with his playing. I'm sure the obsessive engineers at ECM loved that

[Avi Ziv]

One other idea that can certainly work... giving you both distance (avoiding close the close mic 'sound') and reducing breath noise is to use a figure-of-8 mic or hypercardiod set optimally. I like the Beyer M160 hypercardiod ribbon for this, though if you are also trying for room ambiance, it may not suit. Very smooth, nice, mic however, great on mandolin.

A lot of classical recordings are done with omni's, in a great space. You might actually find it worth exploring the possibility of take a portable rig into a really good room. Theaters, churches, synagogues... those kind of places. That way, you get some 'good' ambiance. Trying to "fix it in the mix" is never a good strategy.

Thanks for the mic suggestion. I've heard about it but never tried it myself. For this particular piece, however, I am trying to use more room sound. To that end, I really like your suggestion to search for a great space for location recording. I'm always on the lookout. But the reality is that when I'm given 24 hours of "alone" time in the house unexpectedly, I try to see what is the best I can do with that opportunity. I like the idea of trying some omni recording in a nice space though - I was looking at picking up a pair of KSM141 if I can find them at a decent price. I hear the omni setting is particularly nice on those and the price reasonable.

Thanks!

[Elliot Luber]

I have a similar jazz noise problem. If you're just recording the audio perhaps directing your breath away from the mic by use of something like a snorkel might work. Over time you can train yourself to breathe more naturally simply by being conscious of the problem.

[Chris W.]

Wow. I wish I could draw the image I have in my head right now so everyone could see. I'm picturing a mandolinist sitting in a room with cotton balls stuffed in his nose, a surgical mask around his neck and a snorkel in his mouth adjusting a microphone stand for the optimal placement so he can play a slow air whilst looking away in the opposite direction.

[bayAreaDude]

Glenn Gould's first recording of the Goldberg variations is rife with his breathing, humming, and squeaking chair and eminently listenable.

[Avi Ziv]

Wow. I wish I could draw the image I have in my head right now so everyone could see. I'm picturing a mandolinist sitting in a room with cotton balls stuffed in his nose, a surgical mask around his neck and a snorkel in his mouth adjusting a microphone stand for the optimal placement so he can play a slow air whilst looking away in the opposite direction.

I almost sprayed my screen with coffee, reading this. LOL!

[Mark Wilson]

Some of my recordings sounded like someone on life support in the background. I've tried dusk masks and heavy bandana - helped but wasn't a cure. I don't mind a little of it. Sounds real to me. As you add instruments it fades.

Technique and mic placement are the best fix. You can teach yourself to not breath out in bursts while recording. You can lessen it in the mix but it will be at a cost. Compression and limiters will raise the noise level and highlight breath noise.

[TonyP]

wouldn't the high tech fix be to put a separate mic close to your face and record your breathing, then invert the phase and feed it back into the recording, nullifying your breathing??? just a thought.