Backup in Mandolin, Guitar, Bass Trio

[Peter Coronado]

I've recently started playing in a trio with a guitar and upright bass. When the guitarist is taking a solo, it sounds a little empty so I feel like I should fill the sound spectrum a bit more. At the same time I sure don't want to walk on his break. I've been trying some chords with more open strings to get some sustain when I can. I'm doing a bit more of a strum than a chop. BTW, we're playing maybe half bluegrass and half other stuff, all acoustic. Ideas and experiences welcome.

[SincereCorgi]

I play in a hot jazz trio with that instrumentation, and at first I also felt really self-conscious about the thinner sound of mandolin backup. I think you can get used to it pretty fast- in some ways, it's nice that you don't sound as full as a guitar because the contrast in texture makes it more interesting for the listener. If you're worried about losing groove and forward motion, though, you can throw in double-strums and shift voicings around and do other stuff to fill out the texture at appropriate points. I don't do any big guitar-type strums with open strings (that doesn't fit our style) but I do hit the heavy beats pretty hard and try to think a little like a drummer. There's a lot of mandolin/guitar duos that make it work.

[Amanda Gregg]

What a great question, and one that has been on my mind a lot lately. I play in a duo with a guitar player, and I have felt that "empty" feeling during his breaks. I'm also always looking for ways to vary my backup and keep things interesting. I will be watching responses closely for sure.

SincereCorgi's advice to shift voicings is a great suggestion. Mike Compton, one of my heroes of backing up guitar players and other mandolin players, uses this technique a ton. You don't need to worry about walking a bass line, since you've got a bass player (whew!).

A few other things you can try are rhythmic tremolo (works for bluegrass, very good for backing up banjos) and light cross picking.

Let's see what the experts add....

[zeeku777]

Im in a group with that same instrumentation as well - playing everything from jazz, world fusion, bluegrass, and more. The contrast in sound between the guitar and the mandolin are really beautiful and add a lot to the overall music - so dont be shy about it!

I'll back off the high strings, or at least play more voicings towards the neck, sometimes playing only diads on the D and G strings - which in some musical contexts can actually open the floor for the soloist tremendously (something I love when going off to jazzville). Sometimes you also just gotta embrace the bluegrass-drum role and keep the rhythm runnin strong while the bassist shows off the harmonic structure of the tune. Tremolo on the lower(ish) strings is also gorgeous like is said above, if you keep it light, and in the background. (shifting between triads, 7ths, 9ths is also great if the type of music supports that.. but with bluegrass not so much haha)


But even playing something as high as that high B on the E string as part of a chord extension can be gorgeous as a backing part if you find the right rhythmic niche!

[Mandoplumb]

The band I play in plays all bluegrass gospel. On a medium to fast song I still "chop chords", but vary the shape on every chop, even to the extent on "runs" or walking down or up with with off beat chords. The straight 4 note chop chords continually bores me to death. The music must be fun!!

[Beanzy]

If you move up to chopping between fret 20 to about 13 or so it really gets the fatter more bell or harp-like sound which shouldn't clash with the guitar when they're picking a solo.

[ralph johansson]

I don't think strumming chords with open strings is a very good idea, too jangly. The issue, of course, is the relative ranges of the guitar and mandolin - if the guitarist moves up the neck (I myself tend to solo from the fifth fret up and well beyond the octave fret) things can get pretty confused. Maybe you could get some ideas from listening to the two wonderful CDs by Three Ring Circle (Leftwich, Ickes, Pomeroy), with mandolin/violin, resophonic, and bass. Leftwich is a very good rhythm player. Of course, their trio style depends a lot on the expertise of the bass player, too.

[UsuallyPickin]

There is a lot of good information in the above suggestions. Changing chord voicing , hanging double stops on the G and D strings and cross picking are three that I use. I try to play what is not being played. As long as the bassist has the tempo anchored it allows some different movement from the mandolin. I try to play in a range that is not doubling the guitar in pitch or tone. If the guitar is playing a strictly melodic approach I try to harmonize rhythmically with what he is doing. Slightly altering the syncopation can either lead or support musically what the lead instrument is doing. Keeping in mind to stay simple because what I don't want to do is take musical or audience focus away from the lead instrument or vocal. Luck ... R/

[Steve Ostrander]

Good question! I play in a trio with guitar and e-bass and I've often noticed and wondered the same thing. Sometimes I strum full chords and sometimes I chop, it just depends on what sounds best to me.

[tree]

One thing that might help is to record your trio sometime. I find it easier to more objectively critique my own playing when listening to a recording than I do in the moment.

[ralph johansson]

Another model, maybe closer to what you're attempting, would be Flinner- Grier-Phillips and Flinner's Music du Jour trio
(on the Compass label).
Again, much depends on the competence of the bass player. Then there's the quartet (O'Connor-Thile-Sutton-House)
on Mark O'Connor's fantastic retrospective album, with several solos by Bryan Sutton.

Frankly, if I were to play guitar in a mando-guitar-bass trio I would probably solo very little and enjoy working out a really elaborate accompaniment with the bass player, or some improvised three-way counterpoint in places.

[Mandobart]

That's why Django added additional guitarists in the Hot Club; Stephane had Django to back him up, but Django had no one. I also enjoy bluegrass, swing, Hot Club genres, and the most important thing to remember is your job is foremost to back up the lead player. It's great to give the audience something interesting, but never get so involved in your accompaniment that the rhythm suffers. Rhythm is King!

[Peter Coronado]

Thanks for all of the great ideas from everyone! Listening to the Flinner trios and how Matt approaches it is really helpful . Our trio is a work in progress, an opportunity to try out some new stuff, but most of all it's fun!

[mingusb1]

A lot of advice thus far so I'll just add something simple:

--Double stops and tremolo on the middle courses (D and A strings).

In all of my time playing backup for bluegrass guitar pickers this just seems to be a go-to for me.

Z

[Ivan Kelsall]

With an upright bass playing rythm,i wouldn't have thought there would be too much 'emptiness'.Those guys can 'fill the sound' to an awesome degree.Ask the bass to quit while the guitar player solos, & you really will know the meaning of emptiness. However, to address your question - if it was me,i'd try to work out some nice chord progressions that you could play quietly behind the guitar player,some nice harmony chords which will fill out the sound as a whole. Some nice tremolo work as suggested by Mingus above will work as well,but keep it down to an acceptable volume. A constant ''too loud'' tremolo could kill it. The thing to do,is to experiment with various ideas to see (hear) what works & what doesn't,that could be a whole bunch of fun in itself & maybe you could come up with a new idea or 2.
One thing i'll mention as an aside - on his CD ''Up In The Woods'',John Reischman plays a tune called 'Nesser''.During the guitar break,he plays the chord pattern 'damped'. In other words,his fingers are pressing on the strings just enough to 'make the notes',but he's not pressing them to the fingerboard. It gives a sort of 'chug,chug' sound which if done right, is a texture that i've not heard any other mandolin player use,& it's nice change from the usual 'chopped' chords,
Ivan

[stevedenver]

like zeeku,

I tend to work the D and G strings, and am not at all shy about open strings with palm mutes, anything to try to fill that lower thump
I try very hard to push the 1 and 3 or 2 and 4 as fits,
I have also been known to simply mute and strum ala snare,and like a good bassist, vary the pattern a bit


the big deal is , to me, to simply play whatever range the guitarist is NOT
this can be difficult, and I often play the natural resonant range of my mando, ie, those chords and positions where I get the most -this can sometimes vary from down low and open to around the tenth fret-in which case I will try to have an open string if it fits to add fullness

the bottom line is sometimes it just gets thinner when the guitar stops chording lower
the mando cannot entirely fill that

[keithb]

I play in a guitar-guitar-bass trio, and I have recently started transitioning to mandolin from guitar. I really like having the distinct voice of the mandolin rather than a second guitar, but I'm also struggling with the sparse feeling during guitar breaks.

Things like changing chord voicings, cross picking, tremolo have been mentioned - does anyone have particular (recorded) examples that they really like? Either by pros or your own material - I'd love to get some ideas by hearing some of these suggestions in action.

[Marc Ferry]

Some great suggestions here! What might also help is doing more on the "on" beats (1 & 3). Your focus should still be getting that nice percussive chop on the off beats, but if you do more than just that it will help combat the empty feeling.

[Paul Kotapish]

I think one key to successful backup on the mandolin in this format is to embrace the change in sound and not try to overcompensate by overplaying or trying to be a mini guitar.

Vary what you are playing--chop chords, open chords, bass lines on the lower strings, double-stop lines on the middle strings, arpeggios and cross picking on the top three strings, counter melodies, a simplified sketch of the melody on palm-muted strings--and just accept that there will be more "air" around the lead when it's the guitar than when it's the mandolin.

Work with the bass player to vary what he/she is doing, so that the bass lines also complement the mandolin parts--sometimes playing contrasting parts, sometimes playing conventional roles, sometimes playing in tight unison (although, obviously, octaves apart).

If you are playing something fast and staccato, for example, it might make sense for the bass player to play more whole notes and longer, slower lines with the bow, or if you are chopping on the off beats, the bass should really push the one and three. Mix and match to find the best parts for the song/tune you are supporting. If the two of you have chosen your parts well and are and locking in, it won't matter that there's been a shift in the sonic palette.

Finally, focus on keeping whatever you play super precise and in the rhythmic pocket. A simple backup with killer timing will trump a busier, fatter sound with a less confident groove.

Have fun.

[SincereCorgi]

Finally, focus on keeping whatever you play super precise and in the rhythmic pocket. A simple backup with killer timing will trump a busier, fatter sound with a less confident groove.

This is a great point. I feel like one of the hard things about trio playing that is seldom mentioned is making the transition from solo to rhythm. You have to really practice to make sure there's not a big gaping hole in the turnaround where one person's has finished their solo and the other is getting ready for theirs. You have to end your solo right on time and get back to chords. There can be a tendency to rush in those turnarounds because the one who gets back to playing rhythm doesn't want to lose energy so there's an inclination to push the beat. If you ever want to trade on solos, I hope you've got a very good bass player.

[jmp]

Check out how Duke Ellington and Thelonius Monk would comp. There is a lot of space in what they do but very satisfying musically and I would think that kind of approach would translate well to mandolin, as opposed to say a McCoy Tyner approach.

[lenf12]

Also check out how Tony Rice and Ricky Skaggs managed to do their guitar/mandolin duo albums without a bass. I know they are both supremely talented musicians (which is what we all wanna be when we grow up) and they're "Skaggs & Rice" album is a great example of how to handle the transitions from guitar solo to mandolin solo with no bass to support them. Powerful stuff indeed!!

Len B.
Clearwater, FL