Wood-body vintage National? Basis for the RM-1?

[mrmando]

So here's a photo of a vintage wood-body resophonic mandolin. I found it on a vintage dealer's site. No logo, but the dealer is claiming it's a National and asking an astronomical sum.

Occasionally one sees vintage wood-body teardrop-shaped mandolins (no "shoulders") with cover plates. They often turn out to be "fake resophonics" with no cone under the cover plate. A few might be "real" resophonics, although the ones I found with a quick image search appear to be fake (except this one). Consensus seems to be that they were made in the Regal factory. They usually have a Regal or Dobro-style cover plate.

This one, however, obviously has a cone, biscuit bridge, and National-style cover plate. Closeup photos on the dealer's site indicate that the cover plate bears two patent numbers that were issued to John Dopyera & George Beauchamp in 1929 and 1930, which would indicate that it's indeed National hardware we're looking at.

National's promo copy for the new RM-1 mandolin claims that it was based on a rare prewar wood-body mandolin. The instrument we're looking at now is the closest thing I've found to a prewar wood-body mandolin that resembles an RM-1.

So, does anyone recognize this puppy? Can anyone confirm that it's a National? And what of the theory that the RM-1 might be based on it?

[allenhopkins]

The cover plate does resemble the ones on the wood-bodied Triolian guitars that came out around 1929, so "National hardware" seems incontrovertible. The headstock shape also resembles the early Triolian, though with a less sharp point. Is there anything like a serial number stamped into either the end or the back of the headstock?

[mrmando]

There is indeed a serial number stamped into the end of the headstock.

[allenhopkins]

There is indeed a serial number stamped into the end of the headstock.

If you have access to Bob Brozman's book The History and Artistry of National Resonator Instruments, he has an extensive if not totally comprehensive serial number directory in one of the appendices. The practice of stamping the serial number into the end of the headstock was very characteristic of National, which provides further support to the contention that this may be a National "one-of," or at least "very-few-of."

[mrmando]

Would the presence of a serial number argue against its being a Regal product?

[mrmando]

Here's a page with three "fake reso" mandolins (Windsor, Stella, Blue Bird) that resemble this one (apart from being, y'know, fake). Their manufacture is attributed to Harmony.

[allenhopkins]

Yeah, but that cover plate is spot-on like the ones National used on their Triolians. Regal and Kay made bodies for National -- I have a National Havana wooden arch-top resonator with a laminated Kay body -- but I've never seen a non-National with the serial number stamp on the end of the headstock. Doesn't mean such doesn't exist, only that I've never seen one...

By the way, what is the serial number? I could check the listings in Brozman's book and see if it falls into one of the recognized National series.

[dkimble]

1436 no letters

[allenhopkins]

If you think Gibson serial numbers are crazy and indecipherable, you should take a look at National's, as detailed in Brozman's book! Couple of things that could be inferred:

1. The instrument is pre-1935, i.e. predates the move from CA to Chicago, as all the Chicago serial numbers appear to have letter prefixes (well, not all, but the overwhelming majority).

2. Going by its resemblance (cover plate, headstock shape) to the Triolian line of instruments, there was a series of wood-bodied Triolians built in 1929 with serial numbers running from 500 to 1626 (highest one Brozman has found). The Triolians went from wood-bodied to metal-bodied around Sept. 1929, and had a new serial number series beginning with "0" and a "Patent Applied For" label. Later Triolians are mentioned as having "P" or "W" as a suffix to the serial number.

This is guesstimation at its finest, but perhaps 1929 would be a decent hypothesis.

[kmmando]

Well, its a wee beauty! How much?

[mandroid]

Seen pictures the new ones CNC [or plunge router] out a number of cells in the back,
maybe the outline is reminiscent But the construction techniques are vastly different..

[dkimble]

here are some more pictures. I have not been able to track one down that is similar.

[allenhopkins]

The patent numbers stamped into the resonator cone represent two patents issued in 1927 to John Dopyera for resonator intruments; the second, #1,741,453, is the essential patent for the tricone resonator found in the earliest National guitars. (Ref: Brozman's book pp. 24-25.) So it seems indisputable that the resonator is National, and the coverplate also looks like one of the early 1929 Triolians. I found a sequence of Triolian mandolins and ukuleles from 1931 with no letter prefix, but the numbers appear only to run up to 600 or so, and I think that Triolians were all metal-bodied by 1930, so I'm still guessing 1929 for yours.

[dkimble]

Is it worth taking and having apprasied for insurance purposes?

[allenhopkins]

Is it worth taking and having appraised for insurance purposes?

I'd say so, if you're intending to keep it. How to price an instrument that may be a "one-of," or close to it, can be difficult. If you have an experienced vintage instrument dealer around, that would be a good source of appraisal. For $50, George Gruhn in Nashville will appraise your instrument on the basis of photos. He's probably the premier American vintage instrument dealer, and he tends to appraise toward the high end.

When you have an instrument of a type that's as rare as this, and if you don't have a real record of provenance -- who might have bought it originally, and when -- you may have a real collector's item, or just a footnote in the long history of National resonator instruments. The more that's known about a vintage instrument, the more certain the pricing and appraisal will be. On the other hand, the more experienced eyes that look at it, the more reliably it can be appraised.

[Jake Wildwood]

The headstock SCREAMS Harmony build. As does the neck profile, too.

And to boot, Harmony built a lot of bodies for National as well.

[Jake Wildwood]

For reference (not great because of the pearloid) ---

http://antebelluminstruments.blogspo...-flatback.html

[allenhopkins]

...And to boot, Harmony built a lot of bodies for National as well.

As did Regal, as did Kay. National often found it more economic to buy them from major Chicago builders. The first Triolians in 1929 were wood-bodied, and were apparently made in CA by National; Brozman says they had a "fine wood shop," though you might have a hard time proving that by the neck problems many old Nationals developed. However, once National merged with Dobro, and later moved to Chicago in 1936, they began using others' bodies more and more -- so much that Regals and Dobros were almost interchangeable, and the arch-top Aragons, El Trovadors, and Havanas all had wooden bodies made by Kay or Harmony. Per Brozman, National would buy the bodies for $5 each, install resonator, hardware etc. at about $25 each, and sell them for $50+ -- decent profit margin...

[Jake Wildwood]

Allen: Exactly right. It's just more well-known RE the Regal connection than the Harmony. But I seriously think that's a Harmony-built neck/body. Looks a good bit like a number of old ones I've worked on.

[mrmando]

Well, I bought what turned out to be the instrument pictured in post #12 above. Neat little axe with standard scale. Not many of these puppies about, whatever they are.

[mrmando]

Brozman does indeed mention National buying wood bodies from Harmony for less expensive guitars in the mid-'30s. He doesn't say anything about mandolins. But it makes sense.

A third one of these showed up at an estate auction and then was resold on eBay. Here's the estate listing: http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/...osita-mandolin


This mandolin turned out to be in much worse shape than the photos make it seem, but anyhow. The seller calls it a Rosita, which was the name of a mid-'30s National budget line of guitars with Harmony-made bodies. Considering the similarity between the soundholes on this mandolin and those on a Rosita guitar ... and their complete lack of resemblance to soundholes on any other National model ... I'd have to say the seller might have been right:


The SN on mine, as reported above, is 1436. No letter prefix, which is unusual for Chicago-period instruments, but Brozman lists six Rosita guitar SNs from this period, and none of them have prefixes either (whereas most other wood-bodied guitars do have prefixes).

Also, it turns out that Bert Deivert, Cafe member and bluesman extraordinaire, has one of these for sale (albeit with a different cover plate), also listed as a Rosita, for 9,000 Swedish kroner. Think that's about $1300, but haven't checked exchange rates in a while.

[pheffernan]

Have you considered adding the 1934 Dobro from Kev's Guitarville in Edmonds to complete the set? http://www.ebay.com/itm/371099950182

[mrmando]

I'm in Guitarville frequently; it's within easy walking distance of the homestead. I will check out the Dobro. I've had a couple of them in the past, but I'm more of a National guy, preferring biscuits to spiders. The RM1 is so much more playable than any vintage reso, I probably won't rest until I pull down another RM1 and keep it.

[pheffernan]

The RM1 is so much more playable than any vintage reso, I probably won't rest until I pull down another RM1 and keep it.

Have you tried one of the more modern OMI Dobro mandolins? http://www.ebay.com/itm/1975-USA-DOB...item5667262f56. I'm tempted.