Arpeggios vs. Pentatonic scale

[drjuliushibbert]

I hope this has not been covered recently - I apologize if it has.

I play in a contemporary church setting. I am working on getting better and try to play every day, even if its just 30 min. My progression in mandolin has looked something like this over time.

learn some chords and strum ----> add scales -----> play pentatonic scales for runs when playing live ----> learn arpeggios ----> try to use arpeggios for runs in songs ---->profit (not really)

As I have learned arpeggios and playing them over appropriate chords and chord progression, I still can't "shift" fast enough if the chords are changing quickly. In other words, if I am playing over a simple key of G chord progression I can do that, but if I am in a faster song in another key, I am not good enough to run the arpeggios fast enough to keep up with the correct chords. When that happens I revert to pentatonic scales for runs and I tend to stay there.

Am I totally copping out to use pentatonic scales to stay in key? I am working to get faster with the arpeggios - do more advanced players avoid pentatonic scales all together? - does anyone even know what I am trying to say ?

[jshane]

Well, I'll chime in.

First-- I have to say that I think it is a mistake to use intellect to construct music. I think it is great to use intellect to UNDERSTAND music, and to add fertility to the subsequent creation of music, but the creation itself does not come from the part of the mind that "understands" stuff.

That said, I guess I would say that you might explore the notion of chord tones (arpeggios, more or less) at points where a tune is hunkered down on those chords, and use linear notes (scales, modes, pentatonic, etc) as "motion" during those periods the tune is in rapid transition from chord to chord, and hasnt really "landed" or resolved to stability yet.

BUT-- dont use this intellectual understanding to "create" music... use your ears and creative mind (i,e, HEAR what you want to play).

Dollars to Donuts there will be a lot of other opinions...

[AlanN]

Am I totally copping out to use pentatonic scales to stay in key?

Don't ask David 'Dawg' Grisman this unless you want your G string yanked

Pents are cool, and are just one of the tools in the trick bag. I would suggest learning your Do Re Mis in all keys, using a variety of fingerings. This AM, I took B and ran the major scale up and down (no open strings), over 2 octaves, using these fingers as starting points:

Index on G4
Middle in G4
Ring on G4

It's all lovely.

[John Flynn]

I also play primarily in a church setting and have been doing so for over 35 years, the last 25 primarily on mandolin. My priorities for "traditional" church music and gospel music are as follows. I occasionally deviate from this when playing "Contemporary Christian Music," playing in line with whatever pop genre the music is following, such as rock, folk, etc. But it is church, after all, so this advice should always serve you well.

1. Melody on the regular mandolin, in the lowest octave possible, with tremolos, double stops, fills and cross-picking done occasionally to (I hope) tastefully enhance the music.

2. Rhythm on the octave mandolin, with some cross-picking and melody thrown in for emphasis. IMHO, rhythm on the regular mandolin can sound shrill in a church setting. The OM sounds more "church-y."

I would suggest that learning the melodies of the tunes you do should be your top priority. The other stuff, pentatonics, arpeggios, etc. only work well in the context of the melody. They can also be over-done really easily, making you sound superfluous, if not downright annoying. I am not pointing fingers, BTW, I have been there!

The next priority I'd recommend are things like tremolos, double-stops, cross-picking, etc. as long as you can keep them in the context of the melodies. I see you have an octave mandolin. I would use that for rhythm and work on different strum patterns. You can really spice things up by taking a little influence from bouzouki playing in Irish trad music and not just strumming it like a guitar.

[Pasha Alden]

Thanks John Flynn - that is helpful.
Working a great deal on melody - also to vary what the right hand is doing, so for my mini concert during our Arts Festival I will have those down pat!

[tkdboyd]

If you really want to get a good study of Chord Tones and Arpeggios, check out Mike Marshall's Arpeggio Workout. When I first started watching it, I thought, well this is pretty basic...about a 1/3 of the way through you are fully immersed into some really good theory and doing some mind stretching exercises. Good Meaty stuff!

[JRcohan]

The theory side has helped my playing. Practicing both is important. Pentatonic scales, like arpeggios really get interesting when superimposing them on different chords. I will post a great article about this once I recover it from my notes. Arpeggios and pentatonic scales can take on new life when taken to the context of other chords besides there tonic. I will post a good article on this when I find it in my notes.

hope this helps

[drjuliushibbert]

If you really want to get a good study of Chord Tones and Arpeggios, check out Mike Marshall's Arpeggio Workout. When I first started watching it, I thought, well this is pretty basic...about a 1/3 of the way through you are fully immersed into some really good theory and doing some mind stretching exercises. Good Meaty stuff!

YES! I just started it and I'm improving already.

I really appreciate everyone's input. I wish some of you lived near me!

I don't think I clearly articulated my question: More accurately, when I am improvising
in a particular key, I am using the I chord's pentatonic scales to do so because it sounds "ok" no matter what chord is being played and even if I don't know the chord at that particular moment (I know, I know -I should know the chords, working on it) - I am trying to move toward knowing the entire chord progression and when improvising, use arpeggios for each chord in succession. I assume what I do now is limiting me and maybe using arpeggios with the correct chords would really take my playing to the next level.

[Iron]

YES! I just started it and I'm improving already.

I really appreciate everyone's input. I wish some of you lived near me!

I don't think I clearly articulated my question: More accurately, when I am improvising
in a particular key, I am using the I chord's pentatonic scales to do so because it sounds "ok" no matter what chord is being played and even if I don't know the chord at that particular moment (I know, I know -I should know the chords, working on it) - I am trying to move toward knowing the entire chord progression and when improvising, use arpeggios for each chord in succession. I assume what I do now is limiting me and maybe using arpeggios with the correct chords would really take my playing to the next level.

I fight this same battle, and although I have a fair handle on scales open and closed and arpeggios it's still hard to sit in on a unfamiliar jam and know all the chords to every tune, I always try and find a good guitar player.
Good luck

[drjuliushibbert]

I fight this same battle, and although I have a fair handle on scales open and closed and arpeggios it's still hard to sit in on a unfamiliar jam and know all the chords to every tune, I always try and find a good guitar player.
Good luck

Thanks - so if are improvising in that setting and lose track of the chords do you revert to the pentatonic scale so as to remain in key?

[Iron]

Yes I do, your options are limited, until you can find your way again, incidentally if you got the ffcp chords down pat you can get a lot of mileage out of them playing arpeggios .
Kinda how this amateur does it chop, scales, and ffcp arpeggios probably not the best , but ......
Good luck

[zeeku777]

Do you learn straight 1-3-5 arpeggios or do you include the 7ths?

I've found it VERY beneficial to learn all your 7th chord arpeggio shapes - 2 octaves. Not to pull out as an exclusive solo tactic, but to spice things up. It's also good to overlay arpeggios over different chords, creating runs that reach into different higher chord extensions (like going from a Cmaj arpeggio, then up to a Dmaj arpeggio to fill out all the notes of a Cmaj#11 chord). Now, this works way better in the context of jazz, fusion, folk-funk, some rock, and other vibes, but in Bluegrass too, knowing all your arpeggios, at the very least 2 octaves of 1-3-5 will help you IMMENSELY in the end when you get to the point of fluidity where you can weave together I-IV-V patterns to create nice lines.

All this being said, don't feel like you have to alienate pentatonic scales - they are what our brains create naturally so using them will win the audience - but the key is mixing arpeggios and pentatonics together to get what sounds you want. (extended arpeggios are , after all, what the improvisational greats like Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, Coltrane, and MANY others in every genre do) (I've heard Ronnie Mccoury, Mike Marshall, and Thile dance around some of this)

I love shooting through Maj7 arpeggios in fast bluegrass tunes! Another good note is to just use chord shapes, blasting through chord shapes is an easy way to shoot up to the e string if you can pull it off fast and clean.

Finally, from a jazz/funk perspective (weird for a mandolinist to say, I realize haha) it's very beneficial to learn all your pentatonics and how to overlay them in different keys to add depth to your playing. Overlaying a minor scale a half step above the key your in gives all your dark juicy extensions for a very out-there sound (b9,#9, b13, etc) and overlaying a major scale, or pentatonic a whole step above your home key will give you a lydian free-flying dreaming feel with the #11 in the mix!

I hope this isn't confusing, I'll try to check back to see. But never be dissuade by "professionals" telling you pentatonics aren't okay. Learning all your scales (at least the Major and Harmonic Minor modes) will help immensely in the end and is really the way to go for just general musical/improvisational knowledge. But when you are learning, go pentatonic crazy! Use it in new unique ways, experiment, and try to run 2 octave arpeggios with them, using a metronome to slowly accelerate to a good speed!


Wish you all the best!

[JeffD]

in a particular key, I am using the I chord's pentatonic scales to do so because it sounds "ok" no matter what chord is being played and even if I don't know the chord at that particular moment (I know, I know -I should know the chords, working on it) - I am trying to move toward knowing the entire chord progression and when improvising, use arpeggios for each chord in succession. I assume what I do now is limiting me and maybe using arpeggios with the correct chords would really take my playing to the next level.

I think that knowing the chords (and being able to play them) of the tune you are improvising is the most important thing for pleasing and interesting improvising. The second most important thing is knowing the melody (and being able to play it) of the tune you are improvising. I think anything short of this is noodling along with the tune, which is not the same as improvising IMO.

I really think that if it a break sounds like noodling, the primary reason is the player doesn't really know how the tune is played and/or what the chords are.

[SincereCorgi]

It sounds like you're still sort of in the early stages of learning to improvise, so don't stress too much. Pentatonics are a great way to get going, and arpeggios are a good thing to add as your next step. It's not a cop-out to use anything if it sounds good. (Some blues guitarists have built fine careers using little beyond pentatonics. If you've got great rhythm and tone, you can play simple ideas and people will dig it.) If an approach is working for you, I wouldn't ditch it. Eventually you'll get bored and branch out.

[drjuliushibbert]

Thanks to all of you - lots of great stuff here - thanks for sharing your knowledge with me.

[Don Julin]

I am a big fan of pentatonic scales used as both a key center or as an extended arpeggio. Here is a short video I produced showing an intermediate to advanced technique using pentatonic scales as arpeggios.

[Pasha Alden]

I would practice my scales, I find there is great fun to be had with pentatonic scales. They are also often the basis for many a Celtic tune. I also find that combined in different patterns, that is improvising with them a bit, one can have such fun and add colour to the music.

[drjuliushibbert]

I am a big fan of pentatonic scales used as both a key center or as an extended arpeggio. Here is a short video I produced showing an intermediate to advanced technique using pentatonic scales as arpeggios.

You know its a cool forum when you get a comment from a player with the talent and stature of Don Julin. Thank you sir.

[Jon Hall]

Realistically, you won't be able to accomplish everything immediately. One of the most important chords in any progression is the V or dominant seventh chord. I would concentrate on hearing this chord in the progression and try to use its arpeggio or pentatonic against this chord.

YES! I just started it and I'm improving already.

I really appreciate everyone's input. I wish some of you lived near me!

I don't think I clearly articulated my question: More accurately, when I am improvising
in a particular key, I am using the I chord's pentatonic scales to do so because it sounds "ok" no matter what chord is being played and even if I don't know the chord at that particular moment (I know, I know -I should know the chords, working on it) - I am trying to move toward knowing the entire chord progression and when improvising, use arpeggios for each chord in succession. I assume what I do now is limiting me and maybe using arpeggios with the correct chords would really take my playing to the next level.

[bohemianbiker]

...

1. Melody on the regular mandolin, in the lowest octave possible, with tremolos, double stops, fills and cross-picking done occasionally to (I hope) tastefully enhance the music.

Thanks for your very helpful post. I've seen the term "cross-picking" before, but never really understood what it means. I guess I've always assumed that it meant changing strings in some regard, but after reading your post I went to Wikipedia, and there it's described as similar to a banjo rolling across 3 strings in a syncopated style, except using a flat pick (see link). And also using 3 notes in a 4 note rhythm, thereby changing the note which is accented.

Is this how you are using the term? Is there some other meaning that is often ascribed to it? Thx bb

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crosspicking

[wsugai]

Don is not only such an incredible player, he is also a very, very good teacher, which is a separate thing completely. His instructional clips testify to this.

Anyway, the main idea I took away from Don's arpeggio clip is that you have to (1) know the arpeggios cold, and (2) be able to react instantly to the changing chords, in order to make it all sound like music. I didn't need Don's clip to tell me that arpeggios are a key improvising tool, but until I saw this clip, I hadn't fully internalized the reaction time element in all of this and what it would all sound like if done right.

You know its a cool forum when you get a comment from a player with the talent and stature of Don Julin. Thank you sir.

[Mark Wilson]

I am a big fan of pentatonic scales used as both a key center or as an extended arpeggio. Here is a short video I produced showing an intermediate to advanced technique using pentatonic scales as arpeggios.

One of my favorites. I've gained more from this video than all the books I own. Great lesson and points well made. Thx!

[Chip Booth]

Check out my article: Strategies For Improvising Part I "The Right Note at the Right Time". Arpeggios can be used as references for chords tones, and as such are an invaluable tool. Obviously you can get wonderful melodic motion from them as well. Pentatonic scales have great value and can be used very creatively, as others have pointed out, but I don't generally suggest people start out using them as a crutch for improvising simply because they contain a small number of relatively safe notes. I like all the notes, not just five!

[mandocrucian]

While you can interpret/think of various pentatonics as being extended chords
i.e. GABDE 1 2 3 5 6 = GBDEA 1 3 5 6 9 or GBDAE 1 3 5 9 13 - relating to G as the chord root (this is more advanced analytical thinking) ...... it depends on the order of the notes as to whether one hears it as a "chord" or a "scale"

But first it's better (for those just working with these) if you think of a pentatonics as being a triad (arpeggio) with a couple of added passing notes: (G A B D E G)

So, in order of increasing complexity (number of pitches)
TRIAD (3 notes)
Pentonic Scale (5 notes)
Diatonic Scale/Mode (7 notes)
Chromatic Scale (12 notes)

Add a couple more passing notes to a pentatonic and you've got a diatonic scale or mode. Add all the remaining accidentals to that and you've got the chromatic scale.

Niles H.

[wildpikr]

Three instructional courses that help me are: Mike Marshall's "Mastering Chord Theory" DVD, Mike Marshall's "Arpeggio Workout" DVD and Niles Hokkanen's "Bluegrass Up the Neck" book.

There seems to be a common denominator: pay attention to where you are on the neck [especially regarding the root, third and fifth of any chord] as you work through the progression of any song, in any style. It takes a lot of practice and right now I seem to crash and burn regularly, but it's really sweet when the practice finally pays off. Remember to have fun!