During the time Gibson didn't use best materials for F5s.

[f5loar]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1973...p2056016.l4276
The is pretty common on these 70's F5s, the crumbling of the binding all over the mandolin. Where was Gibson getting their binding? Surely not from the same place Loar got it in the 20's. Anyway this ebay beauty showed up today and the photos really show how bad the crumbling can get. This is more for educational purpose than to post a good buy on a Gibson F5 mandolin.

[sunburst]

...this ebay beauty showed up today and the photos really show how bad the crumbling can get...

As bad as that is, It can get worse than that! Almost all of the binding is at least still there on that one. Sometimes it's a bunch of powdery scraps lying loose in the case.
Some Getsch guitars are as bad and worse. They must have had a similar binding source.

[GreenMTBoy]

What a mess,
Can the binding be removed and replaced ?
What do you suppose that surgery would cost

[stevedenver]

So , are we all sure its the binding?


Are we sure that top coat is original? Did it react with the binding?

Its mighty mighty orange, imho, which could be a sign of lots of UV and high intensity sunlight, or perhaps a hot attic for decades, which would likely cause any plastic and nitro to deteriorate. I know that era had lots of toner, but that one seems pretty orange.

To me, this might be why the clear coat is flaking off, and then, from perhaps some not so nice handling.


HOWEVER< I think, its not the materials. On close inspection of the heel photo, but, based on the neck finish, near the heel, it might be due to a bad mando case, ie the fuzz gassing out and reacting with the finish.??????
If you look closely, there are what I think are the waft/warp lines from the fabric in the neck finish near the heel.

THIS phenomena, I know first hand, from 70's cheap Puerto rican Gibson sourced cases in the era. I would have thought that all the finish would be affected, but, that neck seems for sure a victim. Can't explain why not the back, or why simply the binding. Just a guess.

I pose this because I have a lot of experience with Gibby guitars from that era, with no issues.
And not to contradict f5, I haven't seen anything like this on 70s gibby mandos, including those currently on ebay.

I imagine, but only that, that the binding is the same as used for guitars, such as customs and other multi ply instruments. They were all built in the same plant at the time, and I cannot imagine one order of binding not being used for all bound instruments, guitars, banjos mandos, archtops, etc.

Perhaps it IS a bad batch, ala Gretsch, but I notice those corners are all chipped, seemingly from impact. Can't explain the scroll and heel in this way, I suppose. Yet the headstock and board , with their tight twists too, seem perfect. ANd, not in contact with the case...fwiw. I really can't tell. It seems to be an adhesion issue with the 'clear' coat.

Just think , if you were the original owner, and it is 'bad binding', (or imho the Gibby supplied case) youd likely get a new instrument rather than the effort of rebinding and re-finishing. Clearly something's faulty.

So, at say $2200, could that be taken apart, top re-graded, thinned, etc., refinished and re-bound for any sort of common sense investment?

I know these are BAAD, but I have always loved the inlays and over the top color.

This one looks like its not been touched, but its pickguard is gone. So not played, but , if so, someone took the trouble to ditch the guard, or.....it too fell apart??? I thought that plastic issue with Gretsch was late 50's early 60's, not seventies, and then, with sparkle or wilder colors, like the mardi gras tortoise.

BTW Should that tailpiece have "Gibson" or "The Gibson" rather than being plain?

You know, if I didn't realize how much work re-binding that would entail, I might be tempted to buy it and use it to try my hand.....been decades since I built an instrument.

so just how bad do those 70's era sound? how do they sound mic'd?

[Spruce]

so just how bad do those 70's era sound?

Like they look...

how do they sound mic'd?

Same same, only louder...

[f5loar]

the color is right for this year. They did vary quite a bit in shading colors in the 70's. The crumbling is pretty much all over. Not as bad at the headstock but some starting of it up there. Didn't get dropped to chip those spike corners off, they just rioted off. Agree there could be a relation to the case material and possible over heating damage playing a part. but we've seen many with that and it did not affect the binding like this. I'd go with the bad batch like Gretsch got in the late 60's and early 70's.

[Darryl Wolfe]

My guess is that rather than a "bad batch", several companies experimented with "other" materials and this is the result. However, the case fuzz theory could also be true. I find it mysterious how plastics react and have a hard time drawing solid conclusions to why what and when causes what.

I have hundreds of scraps and blanks for pickguards of various materials and runs. They go all to heck in some instances while the full sheet sitting nearby has been fine for years...go figure

A common theme seems to be dissimilar materials side by side. This could be the case with the lacquer, the binding and the hydrocarbon based case lining

[Timbofood]

No one has mentioned the rough scroll though, the binding thing does raise plenty of issues all by itself though. I appreciate the heat, fuzz out gassing concept. Maybe in conjunction with a new supplier for the material. In those days, a lot was possible!

[sunburst]

No one has mentioned the rough scroll though, the binding thing does raise plenty of issues all by itself though.

The scroll is typical of the period and reflects the general attitude of the Gibson corporation at the time, so I don't see it as particularly noteworthy. The binding, on the other hand, was bought from a supplier. We can hold Gibson responsible for the rather... unimpressive scroll (and other detail) work, but they can't really be held responsible for what happened to the binding material over time because it came from a supplier rather than being made in house.

[Dennis Ladd]

Last year I got an F5 that was signed off in September 1980. One section of binding near the heel looked like someone took a big bite out of it. The store (Westwood Music in L.A.) replaced and toned the binding to match the rest of the mando. They did a great job and it was worth it to me to wait for it. Now, another small piece has broken off in another section and I'll have that done someday. So I'd say, if the mandolin itself is a winner, a good repair shop can redo the binding.

[sunburst]

...if the mandolin itself is a winner, a good repair shop can redo the binding.

The chances of this mandolin being a "winner" are... well, less than optimal.
You could spend the amount it would cost to get a good repair shop to replace the bindings on a pretty good mandolin. Of coarse, there are those who would rather have this mandolin and waste... oh, sorry... spend the money to replace the bindings simply because it has "Gibson" inlaid in it than spend the same amount and get a good mandolin.

[J.Albert]

I'll bid $195.51 for that...

[f5loar]

1980 would be in that "hit or miss" era. Remember Monroe got that really good '78 F5L so it's possible to get a good one from the 80's and more so when Jim Triggs got on board to help re-vamp the F5Ls.

[Greg Stec]

The binding on a friend's early 1970's F-7 has the same yellowing, but the binding does appeared chewed up or heavily stained as the ebay one. He doesn't play it often, but its kept in its' case when he's not playing it.

[f5loar]

They did not make the F7 in the 70's. Only the F5/F12/A5/A12 models were made from late 1970 to early 1979 then it was down to just the F5L for a while and then they added the A5L. The F7 only made in the 30's and 40's.

[Greg Stec]

They did not make the F7 in the 70's. Only the F5/F12/A5/A12 models were made from late 1970 to early 1979 then it was down to just the F5L for a while and then they added the A5L. The F7 only made in the 30's and 40's.

I knew that. 'Scuse the brain burp.

[Timbofood]

Yep, those were the rather less than "casual perfection" days. More like the "Huh, what?" days. Kind of sad really.

[Dobe]

[QUOTE=sunburst;1275397]As bad as that is, It can get worse than that! ....

Yep, I just got done removing the rotted tort off an early 60's Harmony guitar. Thought it was gonna be easy, as half of it or more had the texture of salt, or rock candy. Crumbled right away, till you get in to the ledge. There was enough remnant of glue and non-disintegrated binding left to make it about as hard as removing regular stuff.

[FL Dawg]

I know it's fun to kick around the 70's mandolins, but I can think of plenty of plastic parts from the 1920's & 30's (pickguards, tuner buttons) that break down too.

[f5loar]

But the failing of those parts on those old 20's and 30's (which can be repaired/replaced) didn't hurt the sound a bit. It's not the plastic parts that made the 70's Gibson mandolins so bad, it's the sound they produced, then and now. The crumbling of the plastic binding was like the icing on the cake that didn't show up until 25 or more years later. The major changes that the Gibson Co. made to the F5/F12 in the 70's is now a part of it's history just as the Lloyd Loar era is. You can't make them better by wishing they were better. And you can't hurt them any worse by saying they were bad either. Gibson thought at the time they were better. They put forth a tremendous effort in promotion of these new changes to the mandolins (and banjos). Ford did admit the Edsel was a mistake and I'm pretty sure anyone who was involved with those changes in the mandolins and banjos at Gibson will own up to it being a mistake.