a strings in tune but have different tones to my ear

[Willie Poole]

I own a mandolin that is made by a builder that posts here on the Café and is thought very highly of and when I check the A strings on this mandolin they are in tune according to three different tuners that I have used to check them, BUT to my ears they have a different tone, sort of like comparing an el cheapo guitar to a Martin, same note but a lot different tone from that string...Could it just be the wood density that is under that set of strings? This not a huge problem because most people don`t even notice it but I do and was just curious as to what might cause something like that, I have tried at least four sets of strings all of different makers and it does the same thing with all of them so I ruled out a possible string gauge difference, it is the same all the way up the neck too... I have also tried different bridges and saddles....The top doesn`t show any cracks or defects....

Willie

[Pete Jenner]

Could it be a slight buzz you are hearing? Have you checked the nut? Have you consulted the builder?

[Lord of the Badgers]

To be fair Willie, I've no doubt the luthier would be more than willing to listen to you, and suggest what to do - they would want it to be right and for you to be happy; so I don't think they'll be offended that you have something that doesn't quite work for you. Maybe sounds like a wee bit of nut or bridgepiece filing and fettling to be done. My luthier would have no qualms if I told him I've stuff going on with my mando. Though in fairness most of the issues I've had about odd notes have been due to the tough life my 20yr old Davidson has had.

[Tavy]

Almost certainly there's a problem with the string contact on either the nut or the bridge - it can lead to a "broken" sound on that string. Not necessarily a builder-issue, could be a small bit of bridge or nut has chipped off, or else a humidity change (or just time) has caused an issue on that string. A good setup person should be able to fix it in short order.

[Marvino]

Are you testing the pair with a down stroke on one string and upstroke on 2nd string?
I notice on mine (or my style of picking) a down stroke sounds little different on upstroke, when i do a down stroke on both individually they sound the same.

[Greg Mirken]

Protip: play both A strings together and it won't matter.
Seriously, if you have replaced the bridge and the issue persists, I don't see how that could be a factor, nor the nut if you notice this on fretted notes. A backbuzz on every fret is unlikely, too.
By all means ask the builder, but this may not be worth obsessing over.

[Willie Poole]

Thanks to all of you and like Greg said, I don`t think it is worth mulling over, it sounds the same when I pluck the strings either up or down one at a time, I do set ups and do a pretty good job or so all of my customers say I do so I don`t think a different set up person would make a difference but I will give it a try, there is a good one not too far from where I live and maybe he can see and hear something that I can`t...

Thanks again for the suggestions....

Willie

[Mandodork]

Have you tried a heavier gauge string? 16's instead of 15's? A strings seem to have a lower tension and can sound "floppier" (to me at least) on some mandos. I have heard that some builders tune the tops with specific gauges in mind. Heavier A strings might drive the top more in balance with the other strings.

[Kevin Knippa]

Adjust them to be in tune to your ear. I can hear the difference between two notes that are a couple of cents apart even though all my clip-on tuners say the strings are in tune. The difference is within the tolerance of the tuners. Tuners are not absolutely precise.

On the other hand, if the strings sound in tune together when plucked open but not when fretted, then there is problem to look for.

[allenhopkins]

Little confusion in my (admittedly aging) brain:

You say "same note but a lot different tone." Do you mean that the two A strings are the same pitch, but one sounds different from the other -- has a different tonal quality? Or that both of them are the right pitch (A), but that they have a different tonal quality from the other strings?

In the first case, there has to be some difference in the string contact to the mandolin, between one A string and the other. This would imply either nut or bridge, both of which you say you've checked, and even replaced. Is the difference one of volume, or just tonal quality? Need to check every point at which the strings contact the mandolin -- tuning peg, nut, bridge, tailpiece -- and see if there's an anomaly that leads one string to vibrate differently from the other.

In the second case, the overall checking is still a good idea, but there's also the possibility that the mandolin just resonates differently at different pitches, due to its design and construction, and the wood out of which it's built. Violins sometimes have "wolf tones" where their components respond to particular frequencies with (unwanted) variations in volume and tonal quality. I've had instruments that had particularly loud or muffled single strings, regardless of what I strung them with.

Does this "different tone" on the A strings continue if you fret them up the neck? Or is it just the "open" A that exhibits it?

And, I'd concur that it's worth discussing with the luthier who built the instrument. Even just engaging another pair of ears may be helpful; does the other person hear the same thing you're hearing, or is it your particular ears alone?

[HoGo]

As I understand what is stated in OP the problem can only be on the way between tuners and tailpiece. One thing not mentioned so far can be that some folks use just downstrokes and when first string is played the pick rests again the second of the pair and mutes it, but when the next one is hit the first string is open and of course it resonates together with the second string. This may cause perceive difference in tone.

[jim33]

Adjust them to be in tune to your ear. I can hear the difference between two notes that are a couple of cents apart even though all my clip-on tuners say the strings are in tune. The difference is within the tolerance of the tuners. Tuners are not absolutely precise.

I have had this happen on the A string. The tuner says they are right, but they are not at the same pitch. I tune them together by ear and all is well.

[Al Bergstein]

Had the same problem. Myself and a great luthier tracked it to a bad course on the bridge. A bit of work on it and it was fixed. Now both strings are right, and stable. Seems as though the groove was cut too deep on the back side of the bridge. The string was not laying right in the groove, it was down in it rather than on it.. We went through a lot to find it. Tuners, nut, strings etc. now all is well.

[Tobin]

I have had this happen on the A string. The tuner says they are right, but they are not at the same pitch. I tune them together by ear and all is well.

I have to do that on every course, every time. Tuners are great for getting it close, but they just aren't able to get it perfect. Any tuner that's sensitive enough for that tends to oscillate too much to be of any use. So I get it in the ballpark with a tuner, and then adjust the strings to be in unison (or close enough so that my ear can't tell the difference).

As for the OP's problem, I can't see how it could possibly be anything other than imagination or perception. You say you've changed the strings, the bridge/saddle, and the problem still persists all the way up the neck. In doing so, you've changed every possible variable in the equation. If the strings are different, the saddle is different, and the nut is taken out of the equation by fretting it on every fret up the neck, without any change in the 'problem', then there simply can't be anything causing them to sound different. I don't mean to be dismissive of your issue, but from a purely mechanical point of view, I don't see how it would be possible.

You might try getting someone else to play those A strings individually for you, without you looking at it. See if you can tell which one is which.

To be fair, I do sometimes get this transient problem. No matter how hard I try, I can't get the two strings in a course to sound the same, even when they both register as being tuned equally and my ear tells me that they're in unison. They still sound "different". But it always passes after playing it a little, or changing strings, etc. And sometimes I wonder if it's not just my ears playing tricks on me, or my brain trying to overanalyze the input it's getting.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From jim33 - ".. I tune them together by ear and all is well.". As Tobin does,i use my tuner to get the first string of a pair in tune & then i tune the second of each pair by ear. I also have a tiny difference in pitch between the 2nd strings fretted at the 7th fret to the open "E" strings on both my mandolins - the "E" strings are flat,about 2 cents worth. I simply tune the "E"'s up to the fretted "A" strings & everything sounds spot on. I've also had what Tobin describes,the 'difference' between 2 strings that the tuner says are identical in pitch. Are some individual strings given to producing an overtone or 2 here,or do they need stretching a tad more ? ie. overtighten them slightly & then wind 'em down to pitch.
One tiny problem i've had (hardly a problem really) on my Weber is that when tuning my "A" strings (J74's),the top one,(closest to the D strings),tunes up perfectly & stays there.The lower one has a tendency to go slightly sharp. I posted this on the Cafe & received a perfectly plausible answer re.the possible cause. Anyway,all i did was to tune up the offending string a tad flat, & within a minute or so,it went up to pitch & stayed there. Since i've been using DR MD11 medium strings on the Weber (same gauge strings as J74's),this problem has vanished !,
Ivan

[Willie Poole]

Thanks for all of your comments, I believe Tobin is on the right track with his answer saying it is probably just in my head (ear)..Again I will state that what I hear compares with taking two guitars, one an "el-cheapo" and the other a top of the line guitar, you tune one to the other so that you are striking the same string tuned to the same note and the el-cheapo will not have the "tone" of the better guitar, this is what those strings see to be doing for me, they are in tune with a tuner and to my ear but the one a string just seems to lack the tonal quality of the other one and it seems to be just as loud answering Allen`s question...It could be the way the strings are riding in the slots of the nut or bridge saddle but I have changed both and checked them very carefully and it is still the same...As far as sending it back to the builder, the problem isn`t that overbearing that it needs to be rebuilt or really have a lot of work done to it, as I said before most people can`t hear a difference so it might just be the way I hold it to my body and it could be overtones, which I don`t think it is, in any case it is something that I can live with, I have recorded with this mandolin and the recordings are spot on as far the tone of each A string being the same....

I didn`t mean to open up a big discussion thread but I am grateful to all of you that replied....

Willie

[abuteague]

Willie,
Some useful or useless ideas:

1. tuners have sensitivity that can be adjusted. You can have the sensitivity set such that the tuner says they have the same note, but actually they are just close. The pitches remain different enough for you to discern with your ears.
2. I dampen the other string when I am tuning. It can affect the vibrations that the tuner picks up.
3. I have had disconcerting sounds come from my a-string tracked back to the hook on the tailpiece. It really can be something off the wall like that.
4. I lubricate the nut slots and saddle slots for the strings. They can grab or slip going out of tune.
5. There is a room I play in that has walls that are parallel to each other and I swear that my mandolin sounds weird when I play there. Ironically it is a "practice room." I play outside and no problem. Maybe you have walls that are just the right distance apart to make the A sound funky.

T.

[Tobin]

as I said before most people can`t hear a difference so it might just be the way I hold it to my body and it could be overtones, which I don`t think it is, in any case it is something that I can live with, I have recorded with this mandolin and the recordings are spot on as far the tone of each A string being the same....

Well, there ya go. If they sound OK when recorded, but different from your position when playing, then it's got to just be your perception. Perhaps it may have something to do with your position above the strings when playing, as opposed to being in front of the instrument (like a mic would be when recording)?