Herb Taylor 12 string just hit the classifieds

[zoukboy]

Herb Taylor built this 12 string on a guitar body but since it has unison courses I think it qualifies as some sort of CBOM:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/74405

[Eddie Sheehy]

It's definitely "some part of sumthin"

[NotMelloCello]

Very dramatic look!

[Larry S Sherman]

Beautiful instrument:



...and the seller is really good:



Larry

[Jacob]

dadgad?

[Bernie Daniel]

Beautiful instrument:

(images and video deleted)

...and the seller is really good....Larry

Yes I like how he get so much tune melody line with that simple strum technique -- just great -- good singer too.

Hard to imagine how you could set up a 12 string (6 course) instrument tuned in fifths across though?

[Eddie Sheehy]

This deleting and reposting in the Classifieds to get to the top of the queue is getting old...

[zoukboy]

This deleting and reposting in the Classifieds to get to the top of the queue is getting old...

Eddie: not what he's doing. He had a buyer but the buyer backed out.

[jdsobol]

Powerful sound!

Beautiful instrument:



...and the seller is really good:



Larry

[Markkunkel]

Herb does some very nice work, indeed. If there were any way to make this one work in fifths I'd surely want to give it a home. As is, someone looking for a very sweet arch top 12-string will find one here...

MK

[Bernie Daniel]

Herb does some very nice work, indeed. If there were any way to make this one work in fifths I'd surely want to give it a home. As is, someone looking for a very sweet arch top 12-string will find one here... MK

Really tough to imagine on a 25" scale though. Either the lowest course strings would be impossibly heavy gauge or the highest course strings just as impossibly light gauge

[zoukboy]

A combination of 4ths and 5ths would work. Roger Tallroth uses a classical guitar style low bass string for the low A1 (same as the A on a bass) on his 12 string guitar. He tunes A1 D2 A2 D3 A3 D4. Several builders of Nordic låtmandola also use the same type of string to obtain a low A1 on a 25" scale or thereabouts.

But for straight 5ths on a 12 string guitar a low F1 might be possible for F1 C2 G2 D3 A3 E4

Or tune it slightly higher A1 E2 B2 F#3 C#4 G#4 or Ab1 Eb2 Bb2 F3 C4 G4

[Markkunkel]

Wonderful and helpful perspectives as always, Roger... thanks for sharing your expertise so generously.

Mark

[Bernie Daniel]

A combination of 4ths and 5ths would work. Roger Tallroth uses a classical guitar style low bass string for the low A1 (same as the A on a bass) on his 12 string guitar. He tunes A1 D2 A2 D3 A3 D4. Several builders of Nordic låtmandola also use the same type of string to obtain a low A1 on a 25" scale or thereabouts.

But for straight 5ths on a 12 string guitar a low F1 might be possible for F1 C2 G2 D3 A3 E4

Or tune it slightly higher A1 E2 B2 F#3 C#4 G#4 or Ab1 Eb2 Bb2 F3 C4 G4

So if you went with 6 courses in fifths as suggested for the range F1 to E4:

pitch..........String gauge........total tension (for the course)
E4................0.013".................52 lbs
A3................0.020".................50 lbs
D3................0.030".................51 lbs
G2................0.045".................52 lbs
C2.................0.066"................48 lbs
F1................0.100".................48 lbs
Total.....................................304 lbs

These strings could all be purchased from D'Addario as individual phosphor-bronze strings.

One question might be how much tension is a 12-string guitar neck designed to handle? I guess this would be OK as a 6-string guitar experiences circa 180 lbs total tension at pitch so a 12-string would be designed for at least 360 lbs?

I would not want to fret that F-course with two 0.10" strings though.

[zoukboy]

So if you went with 6 courses in fifths as suggested for the range F1 to E4:

pitch..........String gauge........total tension (for the course)
E4................0.013".................52 lbs
A3................0.020".................50 lbs
D3................0.030".................51 lbs
G2................0.045".................52 lbs
C2.................0.066"................48 lbs
F1................0.100".................48 lbs
Total.....................................304 lbs

These strings could all be purchased from D'Addario as individual phosphor-bronze strings.

One question might be how much tension is a 12-string guitar neck designed to handle? I guess this would be OK as a 6-string guitar experiences circa 180 lbs total tension at pitch so a 12-string would be designed for at least 360 lbs?

I would not want to fret that F-course with two 0.10" strings though.

That .100 string would be a bass guitar string, with doubled windings. I was referencing a classical guitar bass string, (i.e., silverwound on multfilament core, what we typically call "nylon strings"), which would not be anywhere near as heavy gauge as that phosphor bronze .100 and at much lower tension.

From what I have heard Roger Tallroth figured out that when tuning down that low on a normal guitar scale length a lower tension actually sounds better than a heavier steel core/bronze wound string. On the låtmandola the low A1 bass string is always paired with a thinner steel octave string.

As far as I can tell Tallroth plays a flattop 12 string, and the låtmandolas I have seen are all flattops, so I have no idea how this might work on an archtop like the one Mason has for sale.

I ran the tensions for a D'Addario medium gauge phosphor bronze 12 string set and got this result:

len 25.5"

E4 .012" PL == 23.35#
E4 .012" PL == 23.35#
B3 .016" PL == 23.3#
B3 .016" PL == 23.3#
G3 .025" PB == 32.83#
G4 .010" PL == 22.93#
D3 .032" PB == 30.53#
D4 .014" PL == 25.23#
A2 .042" PB == 29.94#
A3 .020" PB == 26.43#
E2 .052" PB == 25.27#
E3 .030" PB == 34.15#
Total == 320.61#

and the light gauge set from D'Addario:

E4 .010" PL == 16.21#
E4 .010" PL == 16.21#
B3 .014" PL == 17.84#
B3 .014" PL == 17.84#
G3 .023" PB == 27.95#
G4 .008" PL == 14.68#
D3 .030" PB == 27.1#
D4 .012" PL == 18.53#
A2 .039" PB == 25.37#
A3 .018" PB == 20.66#
E2 .047" PB == 20.72#
E3 .027" PB == 27.15#
Total == 250.29#

Quite a difference there! I'll ask Herb what he thinks.

After checking with Herb:

It's strung with two sets of D'Addario J17s and can either be in standard tuning or DADGAD. Tensions below:

len 25.5"

E4 .013" PL == 27.41#
E4 .013" PL == 27.41#
B3 .017" PL == 26.3#
B3 .017" PL == 26.3#
G3 .026" PB == 35.3#
G3 .026" PB == 35.3#
D3 .035" PB == 36.84#
D3 .035" PB == 36.84#
A2 .045" PB == 34.04#
A2 .045" PB == 34.04#
E2 .056" PB == 29.04#
E2 .056" PB == 29.04#
Total == 377.87#

D4 .013" PL == 21.75#
D4 .013" PL == 21.75#
A3 .017" PL == 20.88#
A3 .017" PL == 20.88#
G3 .026" PB == 35.3#
G3 .026" PB == 35.3#
D3 .035" PB == 36.84#
D3 .035" PB == 36.84#
A2 .045" PB == 34.04#
A2 .045" PB == 34.04#
D2 .056" PB == 23.05#
D2 .056" PB == 23.05#
Total == 343.73#

So there is obviously a lot of leeway for experimentation if it currently has 343+# of tension on it.

[Bernie Daniel]

That .100 string would be a bass guitar string, with doubled windings. I was referencing a classical guitar bass string, (i.e., silverwound on multfilament core, what we typically call "nylon strings"), which would not be anywhere near as heavy gauge as that phosphor bronze .100 and at much lower tension.

From what I have heard Roger Tallroth figured out that when tuning down that low on a normal guitar scale length a lower tension actually sounds better than a heavier steel core/bronze wound string. On the låtmandola the low A1 bass string is always paired with a thinner steel octave string.

As far as I can tell Tallroth plays a flattop 12 string, and the låtmandolas I have seen are all flattops, so I have no idea how this might work on an archtop like the one Mason has for sale.

I ran the tensions for a D'Addario medium gauge phosphor bronze 12 string set and got this result:

len 25.5"

E4 .012" PL == 23.35#
E4 .012" PL == 23.35#
B3 .016" PL == 23.3#
B3 .016" PL == 23.3#
G3 .025" PB == 32.83#
G4 .010" PL == 22.93#
D3 .032" PB == 30.53#
D4 .014" PL == 25.23#
A2 .042" PB == 29.94#
A3 .020" PB == 26.43#
E2 .052" PB == 25.27#
E3 .030" PB == 34.15#
Total == 320.61#

and the light gauge set from D'Addario:

E4 .010" PL == 16.21#
E4 .010" PL == 16.21#
B3 .014" PL == 17.84#
B3 .014" PL == 17.84#
G3 .023" PB == 27.95#
G4 .008" PL == 14.68#
D3 .030" PB == 27.1#
D4 .012" PL == 18.53#
A2 .039" PB == 25.37#
A3 .018" PB == 20.66#
E2 .047" PB == 20.72#
E3 .027" PB == 27.15#
Total == 250.29#

Quite a difference there! I'll ask Herb what he thinks.

After checking with Herb:

It's strung with two sets of D'Addario J17s and can either be in standard tuning or DADGAD. Tensions below:

len 25.5"

E4 .013" PL == 27.41#
E4 .013" PL == 27.41#
B3 .017" PL == 26.3#
B3 .017" PL == 26.3#
G3 .026" PB == 35.3#
G3 .026" PB == 35.3#
D3 .035" PB == 36.84#
D3 .035" PB == 36.84#
A2 .045" PB == 34.04#
A2 .045" PB == 34.04#
E2 .056" PB == 29.04#
E2 .056" PB == 29.04#
Total == 377.87#

D4 .013" PL == 21.75#
D4 .013" PL == 21.75#
A3 .017" PL == 20.88#
A3 .017" PL == 20.88#
G3 .026" PB == 35.3#
G3 .026" PB == 35.3#
D3 .035" PB == 36.84#
D3 .035" PB == 36.84#
A2 .045" PB == 34.04#
A2 .045" PB == 34.04#
D2 .056" PB == 23.05#
D2 .056" PB == 23.05#
Total == 343.73#

So there is obviously a lot of leeway for experimentation if it currently has 343+# of tension on it.

I'll have to look into these silverwound-multfilament core strings for a mandocello too!