1923 Gibson K-5 Mandocello Sighting

[goaty76]

I ran across this blog http://onemanz.com/guitar/lloyd-loar-gibsons/ where the author briefly describes an afternoon spent with some amazing instruments. The one that really caught my eye is what is listed as a Gibson K-5 Mandocello, signed on October 13, 1923. A few interesting things about that are that it's not listed on the Archive, all the other listed one's are from 1924, and it has a gold plated tailpiece.



Was there a certain time period that the gold-plated hardware was used? There are three K-5's listed with signature dates of October 13, 1924, so possibly this was a mistype? I really wish there were some more pics of it.

Phil

[Darryl Wolfe]

In reading the article, I do not get the feeling that this is an "unknown" instrument. So I vote for mistype..esp since the serial number is not given

However, I feel it holds all probability that there was at least one later '23 K5. We have found a '23 L5...In my mind there has to be these prototypy one offs out there just as the June 22 F5 well before the others.

[danb]

Not sure I have photos of this one.. it could also be a transposition error 31 for 13

[Darryl Wolfe]

Not sure I have photos of this one.. it could also be a transposition error 31 for 13

I see it simply as a 24 not 23 error...as Oct 13, 1924 is correct for a batch of K5's

[goaty76]

In the July 2007 issue of Vintage Guitar magazine there is an article by Gruhn and Carter on the Gibson K-5 mandocello. The example shown and discussed is also dated 10-13-23. I do not believe it is the same one as above. It has a silver tailpiece and the burst is different. That makes at least 3 '23 K-5's I know of that aren't on the archive.

Phil

[pfox14]

The official introduction of the K-5, L-5 & H-5 was 1924, but obviously Gibson was building some in late '23. I agree that the gold-plated K-5 was probably a special order. I wonder if it has a Virzi.

[Bernie Daniel]

How were those K-5 tail pieces made? I've never seen one close up. On this one it looks like a U-shape piece of metal (brass) round stock was welded to the base of a standard Gibson style TP?

[Bernie Daniel]

In the July 2007 issue of Vintage Guitar magazine there is an article by Gruhn and Carter on the Gibson K-5 mandocello. The example shown and discussed is also dated 10-13-23. I do not believe it is the same one as above. It has a silver tailpiece and the burst is different. That makes at least 3 '23 K-5's I know of that aren't on the archive. Phil

Right I forgot about that -- I remember that I bought the issue off the news stand just because of that article Luckily I saved the it and even more amazing I found it. Here is the mandocello from the July, 2007 issue.

It has nickel hardware and the sunburst is different. They both have the original and identical pick guard which is kind of neat. I suppose this one is in the photo archive?

[Spruce]

How were those K-5 tail pieces made? I've never seen one close up. On this one it looks like a U-shape piece of metal (brass) round stock was welded to the base of a standard Gibson style TP?

Thanks for this...
I'm in the process of making one of these, and that is exactly how I'm going to go about it...
In gold, no less...

If anyone has a good closeup pic of an K5 tailpiece--especially pics like this that show what's going on under the hood--I'd love to see 'em...
Love to see how they altered the cover plate to accommodate the two bars, too...

That makes at least 3 '23 K-5's I know of that aren't on the archive.

Can someone enlighten me on the K5 that supposedly resides in Australia, and is the inspiration for several copies coming from that hotbed of mandolin making...?

[Greg Stec]

Thanks for this...
I'm in the process of making one of these, and that is exactly how I'm going to go about it...
In gold, no less...

If anyone has a good closeup pic of an K5 tailpiece--especially pics like this that show what's going on under the hood--I'd love to see 'em...
Love to see how they altered the cover plate to accommodate the two bars, too...



Can someone enlighten me on the K5 that supposedly resides in Australia, and is the inspiration for several copies coming from that hotbed of mandolin making...?

I played vintage Gibsons (A1 mandolin, H2 mandola and a K-5 Loar-signed mandocello) for almost 30 years and I can say without reservation that all the tail pieces were alike. The one subtle difference was the K-5s. The part that held the strings was the same as those on the mandolin and mandola, but it had the additional metal wire soldered to it to make it look (sorta) like a trapeze.

[Ken Waltham]

The K5 tailpiece covers have two semi circular cutouts on the bottom lip, to accomadate the two arms of the trapeze tailpiece. There is at least one F5 sporting a K5 designed tailpiece cover.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Here's one of Dan's pictures from the Mandolin Archive (Loar #75702)



Now what's the story on that one? Hard to tell. Is there remainder of gold plating on the cover and silver on the base?

[Greg Stec]

Here's the K-5 I played for almost 20 years.
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/76981

[goaty76]

Here's a tailpiece I have. It's the same as the one from the article except that it is silver plated. Why do they have the row of tangs at the top as well as the standard set of tangs at the bottom?

Phil

[danb]

Here's one of Dan's pictures from the Mandolin Archive (Loar #75702)



Now what's the story on that one? Hard to tell. Is there remainder of gold plating on the cover and silver on the base?

Henry, I think you are seeing the plating worn through to the brass beneath.. the two slots on the edge of the bottom would have meant that TP cover would also work on a k5 trapeze-style fitting.

We speculated a while back that they might have made many of them like that assuming more K5 sales, and ended up using on F5 mandolins. They seem to out-number K5s, anyway..

[danb]

Here's a tailpiece I have. It's the same as the one from the article except that it is silver plated. Why do they have the row of tangs at the top as well as the standard set of tangs at the bottom?

Phil

Phil, it looks to me like the extra tangs could have been added later- they are slightly different sizes too.

Most folks seem to ignore the lower ones on a "normal" TP and just use the top row. I remember hearing once a theory that that extra bend provided by using two sets of tangs for treble streings helped add a little more resistance against home-wound loops popping. It wasn't uncommon to have a little tool to wind the loops on the end of your own strings, you can see those gizmos in old Cadenzas etc

[Spruce]

Here's a tailpiece I have.

Thanks for this, Phil...

I'm making a few of these, and that pic is a great help...
Can you measure the distance from the base of the tailpiece to the rolled metal of the trapeze for me??
Doing the math, I'm guessing right around 50 mm?
Thanks!!

[Bob Bass]

Hi Spruce, Phil, Dan-

Frank Ford has a very clear picture of the tang organization on Gibson tailpieces, as well as an accompanying explanation, in the string changing section of Frets.com. Consider that it is possible that the ones on the mandocello tailpiece got a bit torqued and twisted over time.

http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musi...dostring1.html

What's astonishing about the mandocello tailpiece is not just 12 tangs, but 20! and not just on one tailpiece, but on 2 mandocello tailpieces visible in this thread, so it may be likely they were intended to come out of the factory that way.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Henry, I think you are seeing the plating worn through to the brass beneath...

Thanks, Dan. I thought of that. Wouldn't it mean that some F5/K5 tailpiece covers were made of brass rather than nickel silver? That K5 cover looks like nickel silver to me. And besides, who would wear through the plating on that spot?

[goaty76]

Thanks for this, Phil...

Can you measure the distance from the base of the tailpiece to the rolled metal of the trapeze for me??
Doing the math, I'm guessing right around 50 mm?
Thanks!!

Your good. It's right at 5cm.

Phil

[Spruce]

Thanks Phil...
I'll snap pics as I put these together...
Anyone need a K5 tailpiece??

[Dobe]

I would think a modified guitar trapeze would be a little more stout than that rig. Maybe Gibson was just thinking they wanted a 'mandolin' looking tailpiece for the 'mando' cello.

[Bernie Daniel]

Thanks Phil...
I'll snap pics as I put these together...
Anyone need a K5 tailpiece??

Sounds like you are off to the races!

I assume you are going to silver braze the round stock to the tail piece plate (part with the tang) --I'll be interested in seeing how it goes. I am sticking with the design I came up with for now but I might just make one using the original Gibson template in case mine fails sometime. Here is the way I did it -- I've made three this way.

I think it would work best to get tail pieces with no platting before trying to do the brazing? I'm not sure if the plating would make problems for getting a good silver bond? Does anyone happen to know where one can buy tail pieces that have not been plated?

That example I pick off the K-5 image (post #7) looks like it was plated after the welding or brazing?

[goaty76]

Does anyone know of anyone that makes a good Loar style tailpiece cover? One that could be used as a replacement on a Loar instrument.

Phil

[Greg Stec]

Does anyone know of anyone that makes a good Loar style tailpiece cover? One that could be used as a replacement on a Loar instrument.

Phil

I'd try these guys first: http://www.themandolinstore.com/scri...?idCategory=73