What mandolins does the LA Phil play in Corigliano Symphony

[Roland Sturm]

For the gear obsessed, here is an interesting question (beyond classical). The Los Angeles Philharmonic, conducted by Gustavo Dudamel, is playing the Corigliano Symphony (4 mandolins) this month. Premiere was on Thursday, 2 more concerts in LA (today and tomorrow), then on tour.

Now, what mandolins might one of the premier orchestras pick - given that their cheap fiddles are a couple hundred grand each?
- Loars?
- old Italian bowlback borrowed from museums?
- 4 matching new mandolins commissioned from (enter your favorite boutique builder)?

- F-holes? round? bowlbacks?

The answer will surprise most of you and I will post the answer in a couple of days. But won't spoil the fun of mandolin spotting at the Phil or armchair speculations. I happen to know 3 of the mandolins and have played 2 of them.

[Jim Garber]

In this case does the orchestra conductor or director actually choose the instruments? I thought most of the violins played are those owned or borrowed by the players. Of course, I am curious. I doubt that if it were the choice of the conductor it would not be merely the most expensive ones they could find but whatever sounded best to them for that piece and with that orchestration.

[bolannta]

Commodiums?

[Tom Wright]

We did that symphony in Chicago (I think we premiered it). We did not get the entire second violin section playing; only four players were willing. It was cheap rented A-5 mandolins, plus the orchestra bent-top flatback. Conductor (Barenboim, I think) didn't care, personnel manager was grateful to not have to hire a bunch of players. I did it once using a Fender acoustic-electric.

Conductors don't much care what you use. I used my 10-string onstage at Lyric Opera for Otello. No complaints.

[Jim Garber]

Is this wikipedia entry wrong on instrumentation? I do not see any mandolins listed. With all those instruments would we even hear the mandolins?

The symphony is scored for piccolo, 3 flutes, 3 oboes, English horn, 3 clarinets in Bb, bass clarinet, 3 bassoons, contrabassoon, 6 horns in F, 5 trumpets in C, 4 trombones (2 tenor, 2 bass), 2 tubas, timpani, percussion (glockenspiel, crotales, vibraphone, xylophone, marimba, chimes (2 sets), snare drum, 3 tom-toms, 3 roto-toms, field drum, tenor drum, 2 bass drums, suspended cymbal, tamtam, finger cymbals, 3 temple blocks, tambourine, anvil, metal plate with hammer, brake drum, triangle, flexatone, police whistle, whip, ratchet), harp, piano, and strings.

I really don't care about the type or brand of mandolin but what type of brake drum are they using? I would love to hear one from a '57 Chevy.

[Roland Sturm]

This is the orchestration: strings, 4 mandolins, 4 flutes (3 = piccolos), 3 oboes, English horn, 4 clarinets (2nd = E-flat, 4th = bass), 3 bassoons, contrabassoon, 6 horns, 5 trumpets, 4 trombones, 2 tubas, timpani, percussion (lots of stuff), harp, piano.

The LA Phil will play that piece in San Francisco on Tuesday, in Lincoln Center in New York on Sunday, Kennedy Center in DC the following Tuesday, then Canada, last performance in Boston.

The commodium joke aside, volume was a consideration for the choice of mandolins. Of course, that's true for most of the orchestral instruments (orchestra basses are a pain to play, violists torture themselves with 17 inch fiddles).

[Jacob]

For maximum volume, resonator and/or banjo mandolins?

[mrmando]

Conductors don't much care what you use. I used my 10-string onstage at Lyric Opera for Otello. No complaints.

That depends on the conductor. I've told the tale before, but a local summer festival orchestra got in touch with our mandolin orchestra one year, looking for someone to play the mandolin bit for a concert production (i.e., not fully staged) of Don Giovanni. We offered to send a player, but the conductor got incredibly hostile and snooty when he learned that said player wouldn't be using a bowlback, and ended up sending one of his violinists to purchase and use a cheap old bowlback instead.

[Tom Wright]

That depends on the conductor. I've told the tale before, but a local summer festival orchestra got in touch with our mandolin orchestra one year, looking for someone to play the mandolin bit for a concert production (i.e., not fully staged) of Don Giovanni. We offered to send a player, but the conductor got incredibly hostile and snooty when he learned that said player wouldn't be using a bowlback, and ended up sending one of his violinists to purchase and use a cheap old bowlback instead.

Yes, some conductors can be petty tyrants. I've played mandolin for George Solti, Pierre Boulez, Daniel Barenboim, and Riccardo Muti, none of whom even commented on the instrument. Only one, Barenboim, had anything to say about style, when he asked me to be more in-your-face with the tremolo in Mahler 7, like an annoying restaurant entertainer hoping for a tip. Then when I got to that spot he pulled out a dollar bill and held it up. He liked his joke much more than I did.

As to audibility, Corigliano keeps other instruments pretty out of the way when the mandolins play.

[Jim Garber]

I participated in a sort of re-enactment concert in Carnegie Hall in 1989 of a ragtime concert that was held there in 1912. The score called for 10 each of mandolins, guitars and banjos in the "plectral ensemble". I know that there were no bowlbacks there and I even doubt -- having referred almost all the players -- that any of the mandolins came from before 1912. I think the conductor was pleased to have that many mandolin and banjo players who could read music. I doubt the audience cared either.

Roland: where in NY are they playing? Are you playing mandolin with them? Anyone else we would know in that section?

[mrmando]

Only one, Barenboim, had anything to say about style, when he asked me to be more in-your-face with the tremolo in Mahler 7, like an annoying restaurant entertainer hoping for a tip.

Heh. I've played it with a couple of different conductors (both times on a snakehead A4), but no one as high-profile as that. Both of them asked for no tremolo.

Anyway, I am dying to hear which mandolins the LA Phil will be using. My guess is Epiphone MandoBirds turned up to 11.

[Roland Sturm]

Roland: where in NY are they playing? Are you playing mandolin with them? Anyone else we would know in that section?

1. On Sunday I think, Avery Fisher Hall/Lincoln Center, then next week in DC, later in the month Boston.
2. No, I have a regular job. Just know about it because there was a bit of mandotasting at my house, so that's where I saw the other mandolins (and eventually it turned out that one of mine joined the band because it fitted better soundwise).
3. Not regular posters here I think.

For maximum volume, resonator and/or banjo mandolins?

My resonator did get some admiration for its punch and a few chortles, but that would have taken it a bit too far afield for the LA Phil. So it's still more standard mandolins. In any event, they couldn't have borrowed it because I need it for pub sessions on Sundays!

[Jim Garber]

I was trying to think of the mandolin players who live in or near LA but I am not too sure. I bet at least one of them will play a vintage Gibson.

[sgarrity]

I'm intrigued now.

[mandolino maximus]

Sounds like most conductors would place concern for mandolin quality slightly above that of sewer flute.

[Roland Sturm]

Conductors care a lot about how the ensemble sounds, after all, that's their job. And musicians chose instruments that work for them, whether or not they are their personal property, loaners (with violins in the million dollar range, the musicians don't own them), or belong to the orchestra (often basses - you have a nice 3/4 for yourself, but play a big orchestra monster there).

This board is packed with all the discussions along the lines "how much do I need to spend for a professional mandolin", "can I get a professional mandolin for $5000". Here we are looking at mandolins played at venues that are a few steps up from pizza parlors or club gigs.

OK, solution is coming up before they'll even start their East Coast concerts (NYC this weekend,then Washington, Montreal, Toronto, Boston). Let me try to find the picture, I thought I took one, post your guesses until then.

Review in the SF Examiner of Tuesday's concert mentions the mandolins:
"It goes without saying that pulling together an effective performance of this music demands focused attention and meticulous control. Dudamel clearly dedicated himself to providing a faithful account of Corigliano’s score; and his control of the Los Angeles Philharmonic resources (generously supplemented with extra players including four unnamed mandolinists) endowed this music with the intense emotionality that the composer had conceived. Indeed, it was gratifying to see Corigliano present for the occasion, taking bows with Dudamel and the ensemble. More than two decades have elapsed since the composer confronted his personal grief through this music, yet the intensity of his emotion continues to resonate when this symphony is performed."

[Beanzy]

Not saying it's any connection with reality................ but with Calace's not being that common there and Embergher 5bis being even more thin on the ground, at only $5k or $6K a pop I'd have bought a few F4s then turn them round in the classifieds after the tour.

[mrmando]

What's with the unnamed mandolinists?

"Don't use my name. If people find out I played with the LA Phil, I'll never get another bluegrass gig in this town again."

[mrmando]

Anyway, I'm going to take a guess here. How could it be any mandolin other than a Shmergel Devastator?

[Tom Wright]

What's with the unnamed mandolinists? ...

Chicago Symphony Orchestra does not list extra players, whether brass choirs or mandolin pickers, in programs, and I think that is industry standard---only regular members are listed. I was very happy they made an exception to that policy for the Muti CD release of Otello, and did list all the extra players by name in the accompanying booklet.

[Bruce Clausen]

Good one, Martin.

I've sometimes been listed in programs and sometimes not. The deadline for program copy must often come before the first rehearsal, and it makes sense not to commit to using players that may not work out. Last minute replacements do occur. Still, if the LA Philharmonic is taking four extra players on a major tour, you'd think they'd identify them.

[Roland Sturm]

Now how does that sound: Trinity College and Kentucky? Yes, seriously. Sorry, can't find the picture to prove it, although you can verify it by going to the concert.

Guido Lamell, who has been a regular member of the LA Phil for 30 years (and is a neighbor), came by for a bit of mando tasting a week before rehearsal started. He plays his own mandolin, standard Trinity College, in the concerts, and was looking for ideas to put the section together.

Among my mandos, tried a Collings MT0 and a 20s Fs (both too dark), a Rigel A+ (too quiet), but a Kentucky 172 (oval hole) was a good match with the other mandolins, loud and bright enough. Now, that particular Kentucky is my camping mandolin, only has 15 frets, too. But it seemed a good fit with the other mandolins (the third also being a low end Kentucky, I don't know what the last one is), so it joined the band for the tour.

[sgarrity]

Playing $200 mandolins next to violin family instruments worth hundreds of thousands? Makes ya wonder what tone they were after!

[Roland Sturm]

Let's say $500-900 mandolins at least by list price (my camping mandolin is the exception, $200 is about right).

Reframes the idea of what constitutes a "professional mandolin", doesn't it?

[JeffD]

Reframes the idea of what constitutes a "professional mandolin", doesn't it?

Yes at first blush. But thinking about this some more and I think it depends. It could also mean that for the ensemble sound, the sound quality of a particular mandolin or two is not the most critical thing. It just has to sound mandolinny.

Or perhaps the particular piece, which is unfamiliar to me, doesn't contrast the mandolin so much with the orchestra. Would it be different if were the Vivaldi Mandolin Concerto, with its lone mandolin against a whole orchestra?

It could also mean that conductors of conventional orchestras are not as conversant with what different mandolins can do.

Or it could mean that in this particular case these instruments have the sound the conductor is seeking.


Not that I can clearly say which brands or price points indicates "professional". I am not really comfortable with the term. One could make lots of money with a $900 mandolin. Or I should say, with such a mandolin, it would not be the quality of the mandolin holding the professional back.


It is demonstrably false that working professionals uniformly play the most expensive instruments, and I am not convinced they all would if they could. Also, I believe it is true that most of the various high end mandolins are not owned by working professional musicians.

That being said I would not want to imply that the higher end prices don't buy you something. Because they do. With individual exceptions of which everyone knows one, most of the better mandolins cost more and most of the more costly mandolins are better.


Very interesting thread. It is one of my goals to play in a mandolin orchestra, and also, someday to play a mandolin part in a conventional orchestra.