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Thread: which binding cement?

  1. #1

    Question which binding cement?

    I'm not sure if this has been exactly addressed in previous threads, so bear with me. I'm ready to glue in plastic binding and have some type II plastic cement I got from Luthier's Merc. They claim it's used favorably by some of the larger production companies. I like the consistency (creamy) of it and find it easier to evenly apply than Duco. Here's my quandry: 15-20 years ago I used one of LM's Proprietary binding cements (not the same stuff as this) instead of Duco and it turned loose some 10 years down the road. Yuck, I hate trying to reglue binding against a nice sunburst lacquer finish. From a recent thread here I gather most people are using Duco thinned with acetone. Does anyone use the cement in question? It's Engineered Materials Em 308B Type II. Do I take a chance on it (it worked fine on the last mando I bound recently) or play it safe with the old standby Duco?

  2. #2

    Default Re: which binding cement?

    So there is the Red tube, acrylic cement from Stew mac, the Green tube, Duco from whomever, and the Blue tube from LMI?

    I vote for the Green tube, but the Red tube has never let me down, and I've only used the Blue tube once, and it worked fine also.

  3. #3
    Registered User belbein's Avatar
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    Default Re: which binding cement?

    I used Duco for the first time on my newest build, to bind (NPI) plastic binding. I was not impressed. Several times I've had to reglue sections of the binding. 'Course, it could be operator error.

    "Duco," to me, smells like the old "Android" or "Ambroid" cement I used as a kid on wooden model airplanes. I'm curious if anyone knows if it's the same.
    belbein

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    Registered User David Houchens's Avatar
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    Default Re: which binding cement?

    I'm 54. If I remember correctly, it was called Duco when I was a kid. But some days I can't remember breakfast by lunch time.

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    Registered User Steve Davis's Avatar
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    Default Re: which binding cement?

    Quote Originally Posted by bryce View Post
    I'm 54. If I remember correctly, it was called Duco when I was a kid. But some days I can't remember breakfast by lunch time.
    http://www.ottertooth.com/Canoe_pages/ambroid.htm
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    F-style Apostate
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    Default Re: which binding cement?

    Here's a link to the technical data sheet for Duco:

    http://www.tedpella.com/technote_html/14445%20tn.pdf

    I like Duco a lot, and used it for my last build. Of course, I have a large stash of original celluloid tortoise shell binding, and Duco has always worked well with that.

    Back in the day, when celluloid binding was "it", I'd dissolve binding scraps in acetone and make my own glue. Worked great. Or fine.

  8. #7
    Registered User pfox14's Avatar
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    Default Re: which binding cement?

    I use 3M's plastic & emblem adhesive and it works great. Very similar to Duco.
    Visit www.fox-guitars.com - cool Gibson & Epiphone history and more. Vintage replacement mandolin pickguards

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    working for the mando.... Bluetickhound's Avatar
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    Default Re: which binding cement?

    Has anyone ever used Barge cement for binding? I ask because I have plenty of it right now... I use it for leatherwork.
    "A creative man is driven by the the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others."

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    Formerly F5JOURNL Darryl Wolfe's Avatar
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    Default Re: which binding cement?

    I don't have anything in front of me for reference as I type, but I can tell you that Duco is not what it used to be. It is Acetone based still, but one of the main other ingredients changed a number of years ago. At that time I carefully looked at the ingredients of two different tubes of Duco and the second ingredient listed changed either from or to a butylacetate or something similar. The other compound was a totally different material. It apparently is the actual binder in the mix that maintains the thick viscosity compared to straight Acetone. The new material is less volatile and can create an actual filler material between the two pieces instead of promoting a weld.

    This change caused the me to have to prime the surfaces with pure Acetone before applying the cement. It also caused me to have to apply cement to both surfaces, wait 10-15 seconds, wipe the skin off and apply more cement as the cement now dries too fast or the Acetone leaves too quickly.

    At this point I can now tape my binding to my pickguards. And, I still get an occassional let go of the binding due to the binder being present between to two surfaces

    I still have not found anything better. But, it does not weld as easily as it did with the other more volatile binder coumpound it had.

    I will be checking out what PFOX recommended.
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  12. #10
    Registered User David Houchens's Avatar
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    Default Re: which binding cement?

    When I was using a lot of Duco at the "banjo factory", We would add acetone to it in small squeeze bottles. Seemed to make it work better. We never had much failure of it but were only using nitrocellulose bindings. Also no scraping bindings for two weeks to allow it to fully shrink and I suppose it may have allowed more curing before disturbing it. Not sure that made any difference.

  13. #11

    Default Re: which binding cement?

    I did not fully read the OP's statement late last night, that Rob is using "plastic" binding.
    If I'm using plastic binding, not celluloid, I use the "tape & wick-in" method with superglue.

  14. #12
    Registered User belbein's Avatar
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    Default Re: which binding cement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Davis View Post
    Thanks. Brings back memories.
    belbein

    The bad news is that what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. The good news is that what kills us makes it no longer our problem

  15. #13

    Default Re: which binding cement?

    Stew-Mac's binding adhesive (red tube) is Weld-On #16. It's acetone, methyl ethyl ketone, and styrene monomer. Basically clear acrylic in a solvent base. I use it a lot for gluing clear acrylic together, which is pretty challenging to do if you want an optically clear joint. In the case of wood, I would add a little more solvent or prime the surfaces with solvent (acetone or MEK, depending on how healthy you are feeling).

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: which binding cement?

    Quote Originally Posted by bryce View Post
    When I was using a lot of Duco at the "banjo factory", We would add acetone to it in small squeeze bottles. Seemed to make it work better. We never had much failure of it but were only using nitrocellulose bindings. Also no scraping bindings for two weeks to allow it to fully shrink and I suppose it may have allowed more curing before disturbing it. Not sure that made any difference.
    I worked at the same "banjo factory", started several years before David. I was the one who started adding acetone to Duco. We had been using Duco cement for years with no major problems, then "out of the blue", we started having problems with gaps at the edges of bindings. Apparently, that coincided with the change in the formula for Duco. Anyway, I started adding acetone to my bottle of Duco and the finish person said my bindings were much better, so it became SOP. I still use Duco and I still add acetone to it to make it perform like it did before the change.

  17. #15
    Registered User David Houchens's Avatar
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    Default Re: which binding cement?

    And it wasn't nitrocellulose binding. Not sure where that came from. Celluloid was what I was trying to get out.

  18. #16
    working for the mando.... Bluetickhound's Avatar
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    Default Re: which binding cement?

    When you add acetone are you looking for a general viscosity or is there an actual measurement of acetone to Duco that gives you the mix you need? I ask because I add a few drops of acetone to my D2T (Devcon 2 ton eooxy) when making balsa fishing lures to lengthen working time and improve flowout, as well as releasing the tiny bubbles that form when the two parts are mixed...
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    Tony Bare
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    Default Re: which binding cement?

    This thread reminds me of my first experience with building and this board. My first kit build was going fine till I got to gluing the binding. Model airplane glue seemed like a good glue to use. When I removed the tape the binding came with it. I asked this board what to use and was advised to try duco. I tried again with duco and the same thing happened. I told the board what happened and the first reply was " was the tube blue or green?" With a 50\50 choice to make and the way my luck usually runs I chose the blue. I was advised to try the green tube. Worked great. Nine years later I still play that mando and the binding hasn't moved. Love this board.
    Tony Bare

  20. #18
    wood butcher Spruce's Avatar
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    Default Re: which binding cement?

    Quote Originally Posted by pfox14 View Post
    I use 3M's plastic & emblem adhesive and it works great. Very similar to Duco.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darryl Wolfe View Post

    I will be checking out what PFOX recommended.
    Do we have any updates on 3M's glue??
    I'm about to give it a go, and will report back...


  21. #19
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: which binding cement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluetickhound View Post
    When you add acetone are you looking for a general viscosity or is there an actual measurement of acetone to Duco that gives you the mix you need?
    Well, nearly three months later I find this unanswered question...
    No measurement, just add some acetone to the Duco in a plastic glue bottle, shake it up to mix, and use the adhesive. Just going for a general viscosity. It doesn't seem to matter how much acetone is added as long as the viscosity is improved over the straight-from-the-tube condition. I suppose it could get too thin and not work well if too much acetone is added, but I've never done that.

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    Default Re: which binding cement?

    I always use Duco, never had a problem. You have to know your using celluloid and not ABS, get lots of glue in the joint, and wipe away the excess. Very important since it will melt the binding if left under the tape. And clamp it very tightly, I use green tape.
    Get tubes, not bottles. Will not thicken as quickly since there's no place but the nozzle to evaporate from. If it seems too thick, throw it out and start a new tube. It's cheap.

  23. #21
    wood butcher Spruce's Avatar
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    Default Re: which binding cement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hilburn View Post
    I always use Duco...
    6 hardware stores, and I've yet to find the stuff...
    ...and I need it today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hilburn View Post
    Very important since it will melt the binding...
    That's what I've always liked about Duco--it seems to meld the binding into the wood, in a good way...

  24. #22
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    Default Re: which binding cement?

    Right,melt it in the joint, but not anywhere on the outside of the joint. As I say often, if you watch Bennedetto's video it's a great tutorial on how to do it.
    I get it locally at Orielly auto parts.

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  26. #23
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: which binding cement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spruce View Post
    6 hardware stores, and I've yet to find the stuff...
    ...and I need it today.
    Same here. When I find it I usually buy all they have. If it thickens, I add acetone, never throw it away... too hard to find. (my best chance is usually True Value or a locally owned hardware store, Dollar General, or some other unpredictable place.
    FWIW, I've always taped over the bindings, mess and all, and never had a problem with later clean-up or unduly melted bindings. Of coarse, I apply binding while there is still plenty of scraping and sanding to do.

  27. #24
    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
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    Default Re: which binding cement?

    I just use Loctite superglue.

  28. #25
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    Default Re: which binding cement?

    I buy my Duco at the Hobby store and buy by the box. Jim is right - go with the tubes and slop it on/wipe it off. If you do that, it melts pretty well. I still prime my miters with acetone though.

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