Differences in Tonewood Within Same Species?

[Doug Heinold]

Speaking just in terms of spruce and maple here, are there significant differences in tone from spruce to spruce or maple to maple? Does the age or quality of the specific selection of wood matter as much or more than any difference between one type of spruce to another? I've started talking to a builder about a custom mandolin and my inclination is to leave the wood selection to him and his expertise, but I want to make sure I'm not glossing over the matter.

[mandolirius]

[Marty Jacobson]

I've started talking to a builder about a custom mandolin and my inclination is to leave the wood selection to him and his expertise, but I want to make sure I'm not glossing over the matter.

I tend to distrust any of the overly broad characterizations of tonal characteristics of any particular species. I could make a really mellow mandolin using yellow cedar, and if a customer likes that, then I'll probably go back to yellow cedar to make another mellow mandolin, since I know what it takes to achieve that based on past experience. Someone else might take a completely different approach, but neither is wrong.

Definitely talk to whomever you're commissioning the instrument from. There are lots of differences between tonewoods, but there are also differences from maker to maker. What one maker sees as being brighter may not make so much difference to another one.
So talk about what you like to hear in a good instrument and see what the builder has on tap that they feel will fit the bill. Some makers select tonewoods to get a certain tone, and others use red spruce and maple for everything. From my experimentation, though, I wonder if it's the tonewoods which are really driving the tone profile, or if it's the sound I have in mind as I'm working with that piece of wood.

[Mike Bunting]

This help?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3Jha...l_9ODL3qYgV0wQ

[testore]

A great builder builds great instruments with the materials they have. If you trust the builder that you have selected then let them decide what types of wood to use. We usually have a few pieces in our woods pile that we are dying to use. They will know what to use for your instrument.

[Steve Sorensen]

I often think that tonewoods are to instruments as grapes are to wine. In both cases, the inherent characteristics of the initial selections provide possibilities, direction and also limitations to the final product.

In both cases, the starting point is important, however the majority of the result is created from the culmination of countless decisions (and sometimes accidents) during processing. You cannot turn rotten grapes into great wine, but you can easily turn magnificent grapes into disgusting dreck with the wrong inputs or mistakes along the way.

Same is true with tonewoods -- each species has some set of broad characteristic tendencies. However, each billet selection within the species can have huge variations within and around that set of traits.

So the tree grows and is cut; the wood is sectioned and split and sawed; then stored someplace; then the billet is whittled, and eventually paired with other materials; then glued; then finished . . . and the possibilities for the resulting instrument are continually narrowed with each decision made from forest to finished instrument.

However, conventional wisdom and prejudices often cause the first and greatest set of lost possibilities.

The best wine I've ever tasted was from a small batch of pale pink, early-harvest, lightly pressed Champagne-style sparkling Cabernet Sauvignon made as an experiment . . .

Steve

[sunburst]

I've started talking to a builder about a custom mandolin and my inclination is to leave the wood selection to him and his expertise, but I want to make sure I'm not glossing over the matter.

Good plan. Builders often develop preferences, and you very well may get the builder's best work if you let him stick with those preferences.
Nuts and bolts: stiffness, density, internal damping. Those are the three main physical characteristics that affect how wood will sound. The stiffness, density and damping of species vary greatly and overlap significantly between species. It is the builder who is responsible for the instrument's potential, and the player who is ultimately responsible for the sound.
So, in order of importance to sound we have; 1- the player, 2- the builder 3- the design, 4- the materials, and it goes on from there. How much importance should we attribute to wood species?

[violinvic]

The best wine I ever tasted was a 1970 Boones Farm. February- that was a great month.

[Spruce]

I've started talking to a builder about a custom mandolin and my inclination is to leave the wood selection to him and his expertise...

Good call...
I know a tad about tonewoods and their characteristics, and even have a few pieces kicking around the barn here...

But for each and every mandolin I've had built, I left the decision up to the builder...

[Doug Heinold]

All sound advice. Thanks all for taking the time to help me out. Keeps coming back to my initial inclination to leave it to the builder. And in reality, while the instrument will be "custom" so much of the process I want to say, "just do what you think is best."

[sgrexa]

Seeing as you have an Eastman F, I will assume you like carved top, F hole mandolins. Personally, I have become more convinced than ever that red spruce and sugar maple are the way to go. I have been more adventurous than many and tried almost all the spruces- Engelmann, Sitka, Alpine Swiss (European / Carpathian?), Adirondack, as well as cedar and redwood. Also tried backs with mahogany, claro walnut, rosewood, all the common maples (sugar, red, big leaf), some unknown Chinese maples?, and Tasmanian myrtle. For sheer power, volume, response, and consistency, red spruce and sugar maple can't be beat IMHO. A very close second was this Hi Altitude Swiss (Carpathian) spruce that Will Kimble and Peter Coombe were using about 10 years ago. That stuff was just beautiful wood, but there seems to be more variation in that species as opposed to red spruce which seems pretty consistent. Lynn Dudenbostel told me he prefers Carpathian over red spruce as it seems to have the tone he likes immediately whereas red spruce takes some time to develop. Leaving it to the builder is always good advice but it is important to have at least a general direction of where you want to go. Who is building your instrument?

Sean

PS- I am in Haddon Heights so PM me if you want to check out some mandolins, I am always up for that!

[peter.coombe]

I'm not sure I agree that Red Spruce is more consistent. My experience is that it is all over the place in regard to stiffness and density. I have some pieces that are as light as the lightest pieces of Engelmann I have, and other pieces that are the heaviest pieces of Spruce I have. The Swiss Spruce is more consistently light and stiff, although not as stiff as the stiffest pieces of Red Spruce. Whatever, all wood is highly variable, and there is a considerable amount of overlap between species. Like Lynn, I also like Carpathian Spruce a lot and have been using it more than Red Spruce lately in combination with European Maple. It seems to sound very similar to Red Spruce, but what might take 3 years to develop in Red Spruce will take 3 months with Carpathian. I have not used suger maple very much mainly because figured pieces are non existent here and being so heavy it costs an arm and a leg to import. I did make one A5 with the Red Spruce/birdseye maple combination, but it was too bright for my taste. However, that is now quite a few years ago. I like European Maple because it is on average stiffer and lighter than the other maples, and the violin suppliers can supply consistently high quality wood. It is not used much in the US because the local Maples are abundant and cheap, but true Maples are not native to Australia. Light and stiff means less mass to move -> more responsive and louder instrument. There is a reason why it is used in violins. Nowadays I don't use Tasmanian Myrtle in my A5, but still make the occasional Myrtle oval hole mandolin where the sweetness Sean mentions comes through very nicely, particularly with Carpathian Spruce tops. Tasmanian Myrtle is quite heavy, so does lack a little in clarity and volume, but on the other hand does have a nice sweet warm sound. It is all a matter of taste, and different builders will get different results from the same woods.

[Vincent Capostagno]

Some people feel that the purpose of a custom build is to pick the wood species, tuners, tailpieces, etc....
Others feel that the purpose of a custom build is to pick the physical dimensions (neck shape, nut width etc) that make the instrument more comfortable to play and that generates a balance and volume suitable to the music they enjoy playing.
These end up being the "keepers".

[David Newton]

As a customer, it is up to you to find the builder who is already building what you want.

As a builder I do my very best work when the customer gives me broad generalizations of what they want in an instrument, and give me the freedom to create. I will then ask the customer the questions that help me tailor the instrument to their wants.

[stevedenver]

Seeing as you have an Eastman F, I will assume you like carved top, F hole mandolins. Personally, I have become more convinced than ever that red spruce and sugar maple are the way to go. I have been more adventurous than many and tried almost all the spruces- Engelmann, Sitka, Alpine Swiss (European / Carpathian?), Adirondack, as well as cedar and redwood. Also tried backs with mahogany, claro walnut, rosewood, all the common maples (sugar, red, big leaf), some unknown Chinese maples?, and Tasmanian myrtle. For sheer power, volume, response, and consistency, red spruce and sugar maple can't be beat IMHO. A very close second was this Hi Altitude Swiss (Carpathian) spruce that Will Kimble and Peter Coombe were using about 10 years ago. That stuff was just beautiful wood, but there seems to be more variation in that species as opposed to red spruce which seems pretty consistent. Lynn Dudenbostel told me he prefers Carpathian over red spruce as it seems to have the tone he likes immediately whereas red spruce takes some time to develop. Leaving it to the builder is always good advice but it is important to have at least a general direction of where you want to go. Who is building your instrument?

Sean

PS- I am in Haddon Heights so PM me if you want to check out some mandolins, I am always up for that!

I no longer build, but as player, having played and owned many of the above combinations, I have the same opinion. I simply love Addy as a top over almost all others. Woods do make a difference, one that I can hear.

[ides1056]

I'd expect to find considerable variation in a single tree, depending on where the piece of tonewood comes from. I know from milling for other uses that the heaviest log is the butt log, the first eight feet of the tree. I'd expect it will sound differently than a piece from higher up in the tree, regardless of species. I tend always to select out butt logs for my own use- building- because the wood is denser. I'd also expect that the age of the tree would matter, its diameter, and certainly its growth pattern, eg no spiral growth or reaction wood.

[HoGo]

Does the age or quality of the specific selection of wood matter as much or more than any difference between one type of spruce to another?

If you read discussions for long enough you will find so many opposing opinions on this even from well respected builders that it's hard to get final answer. I live in center of carpathian mountains in Europe and had really good laugh when the word "carpathian spruce" entered US tonewood market and read all those descriptions. There is just one species of spruce all over the Europe and it can be extremely different within few miles span. Makers often forget that they don't have representative sample of the whole species or from the region but rather sample of inventory of few suppliers. One good spruce tree can yield a 100 or more of violin/mandolin sets and if supplier gets few logs from the same place cut at the same time there is good chance they will be quite consistent. But it's hard to judge whole species based on such sample.
I just strung up for a friend mandolin made from SM kit after he gave up and while the back is of inferior maple with knot and some defects and top has tremendous runout, it sound very much like rest of my mandolins. So I guess it's not in the wood at all.

[peter.coombe]

Adrian, you are absolutely right, and I think a bit more clarification is required.

When Sean and I refer to "Swiss" Spruce we mean the Spruce that is supplied by Florinette from Switzerland, and their wood comes from high altitude Spruce in the Alps in Switzerland. When we refer to "Carpathian" Spruce we mean the wood supplied by John Preston in the USA. John's wood comes from the Carpathian mountains in Romania. The wood is a very small sub set of what grows in Switzerland and Romania. Romania is a big country, so I would expect a huge amount of variability. If you took a random sample from both countries then there may not be any significant difference because it is all the same species, but the sample from these two suppliers is not random. The spruce from these two sources is different, with not much overlap, and it sounds different. I don't think you would get much disagreement from Lynn or Will nor from a whole host of guitar makers on this point. I have used probably around 50 tops from Florinette and around 30 from John, so I have a pretty good sample from both suppliers. Shuffle up all the tops and I could pick the Florinette tops from John's tops with close to 100% accuracy. The reason why it is different could be due to a number of reasons. It could be growing conditions, genetics, how the trees are selected, how the wood is processed etc. My bet is on growing conditions, with some genetics involved, but we are talking about growing conditions in fairly small areas of Europe, so it is a very small sample, and not all that surprising that the wood is different. Wood with different physical properties will sound different. It is unfortunate the marketing hype around "Carpathian Spruce" has muddied the waters somewhat. Some bright marketing spark even tried to claim that Carpathian Spruce was actually US Red Spruce, planted by monks in the Carpathian mountains hundreds of years ago. Not surprisingly, that has since been proven to be pure BS.

[sgrexa]

My experience with red spruce is not as extensive as Peter's, but when I say consistent, I was talking more about appearance and tone. The examples I have seen are almost always fairly wide grained and rarely exhibit the medullary rays or silking seen in Sitka and Engelmann. It is hard to describe tone with words, but every red spruce mandolin I have played has similar characteristics, with a noticeable "pop" to the notes. Speaking of Sitka, it a shame that this wood seems to have fallen way down the "ladder of esteem" in the mandolin world. I personally like it more than Engelmann and feel it is often overlooked and not given proper respect. Every Gibson F9 and A9 I have played have been great, along with the countless Flatirons from the 90's etc..

Sean

[Rustyback]

There is a botanical disagreement whether theres is more than one Picea species i Europe --- The Russians claims that Picea obovata ( siberian spruce ) is a species, while western european botanist regard this as Picea abies subspecies obovata.
This s(s)p is to be found at least in Scandinavia and is potentional in regions adjacent to cold temperate Russia
In horticulture You will find a lot of Picea abies cultivars, and in botany some varities are recognized base on morphological
characters.
I am not a scientist but I believe that an ambitious botanist could sort out a lot varities, ecotypes and notho(false)subspecies
As a passionate ferngrower with a special fondness for Maidenhair fern ( Asplenium trichomanes ) I have personally grown
15+ ssp.,nothossp. and varities all different in vigour and m

[Rustyback]

Dont know what happend cont....
ophology
Mandolinwise : my pickingbuddy and I Victor "Flatbush" Smith build 2 "identicals -- one with a softer and flexible top and one with normal stiffness, picked from his stash of (German) alpine.
Both "Flatbushish" sounding but tonally quite diffferent
I have done a lot of seed and sporepropagation and the variation is BIG within the same species
I suspect that every log has its "own"
Please forgive me for any name dropping
If it sounds good, it must be good
Jens

[Rustyback]

Also asking for forgiveness for spellinx, syntax and missing words, was in a hurry

[HoGo]

There is a botanical disagreement whether theres is more than one Picea species i Europe --- The Russians claims that Picea obovata ( siberian spruce ) is a species, while western european botanist regard this as Picea abies subspecies obovata.
This s(s)p is to be found at least in Scandinavia and is potentional in regions adjacent to cold temperate Russia
In horticulture You will find a lot of Picea abies cultivars, and in botany some varities are recognized base on morphological
characters.
I am not a scientist but I believe that an ambitious botanist could sort out a lot varities, ecotypes and notho(false)subspecies

You don't need botanists for this. From the little I know about local forestry, I recall that when new trees are planted they should be grown from seeds collected within the region. Reasoning is that even the slight genetic variations may cause poor growth of trees from different location. So there are some differences but how much of that can be noticeable in the wood is hard to quantify.

[tree]

From the little I know about local forestry, I recall that when new trees are planted they should be grown from seeds collected within the region. Reasoning is that even the slight genetic variations may cause poor growth of trees from different location.

In forestry the word "provenance" refers to the original geographic seed source. Seed source is important because of a species's adaptation to local climate and soil conditions. For example, red maple (Acer rubrum) occurs from Canada to Florida, but seedlings from northern provenances are not well adapted to growing in southern areas (and vice versa).

[sunburst]

So, foresters favor limiting genetic diversity in a region?