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Thread: Mandocello build thread

  1. #26
    Resonate globally Pete Jenner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandocello build thread

    Struth mate you've nearly finished!!! Slow down so I can take notes.
    The more I learn, the less I know.

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    Registered User John Kelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandocello build thread

    A superb project, John.

  3. #28

    Default Re: Mandocello build thread

    Jonh, What exactly is a mandocello. I thought they were about the same size as a mandola but with 25" scale it must be bigger. Is it about the same as an octave? How will it tune? Thanks, Danny

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandocello build thread

    A mandocello fits into the "mandolin family" in the same place as a violoncello fits into the "violin family". It is tuned CGDA, one octave below a mandola (or viola), the same as a cello. An octave mandolin, by contrast, is tuned GDAE one octave below a mandolin.
    So, we have; violin, viola, violoncello, and double bass making up the violin family, and we have; mandolin, mandola, mandocello, and mandobass making up the mandolin family. Octave mandolin is a newer instrument that wasn't/isn't commonly used in mandolin orchestras, and as far as I know, there is no corresponding "octave violin", but I could certainly be wrong about that.

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandocello build thread

    A little more non-glamorous progress. Since this is my first mandocello I didn't have a form. A trip to the hardware store and a trip to a local cabinetmaker (and musician) for some scrap plywood, and here's my form for building the body. I used some scrap lumber for the 'spreader'. Now, when time permits, I can bend the sides and glue up the rim.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #31

    Default Re: Mandocello build thread

    Hey John, This form and spreaders look great. What are those black round things at the ends of the turnbuckles? Do they come with the turnbuckles or are they something you have to make? Thanks, Danny

  8. #32
    working for the mando.... Bluetickhound's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandocello build thread

    Good stuff! I'm in Guatemala right now and as you might expect, 'net service is spotty at best... when I get back home I should have packages waiting.on.me to get back working on my project.

    John, I'm sure you have been asked this a million times but what is your take on inside (as opposed to outside) molds?
    "A creative man is driven by the the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others."

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    Resonate globally Pete Jenner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandocello build thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan of SC View Post
    Hey John, This form and spreaders look great. What are those black round things at the ends of the turnbuckles? Do they come with the turnbuckles or are they something you have to make? Thanks, Danny

    In Australia we call them washers.
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    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandocello build thread

    [QUOTE=sunburst;1261266]Octave mandolin is a newer instrument that wasn't/isn't commonly used in mandolin orchestras/QUOTE]

    ...just a wee tidy-up in that what gets called octave mandolin is actually the original mandola instrument.
    It's the 'real deal' with the newer CGDA mandoliola being the new boy on the block, of which Raneri and Embergher seem to have been the main proponents so people could just replicate the Classical quartet and use the same music, read out of the same clefs and sound in the same registers. The older quartets with mandola (GDAE/Octave mandolin) are often referred to as Romantic Quartets. So alll those octave tuned mandolas are more 'mandolinny' in a sense than the wannabe viola tuned ones.
    Eoin



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  12. #35
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandocello build thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluetickhound View Post
    ...I'm sure you have been asked this a million times but what is your take on inside (as opposed to outside) molds?
    I've always used an outside mold for mandolins, so I don't have an informed opinion on inside molds. I can see distinct advantages to using an inside mold for violins, but the typical point-and-scroll-bearing-mando-thing (there, that should take in everything from mandolin to mandocello) has an overlapping side piece covering the lower point block inside the rim, so using techniques similar to violin construction, with an inside mold is complicated by that.
    As I see it, if it gets the job done, it's fine, and both get the job done. If one is easier than the other, that's an advantage. If we're used to one or the other, that's and advantage, and I'm used to an outside mold.

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  14. #36
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandocello build thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Jenner View Post
    In Australia we call them washers.
    Good call. Fender washers, to be exact. There just a way to hold the big round ends of the turnbuckles in place with a single screw.

  15. #37
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandocello build thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    A mandocello fits into the "mandolin family" in the same place as a violoncello fits into the "violin family". It is tuned CGDA, one octave below a mandola (or viola), the same as a cello. An octave mandolin, by contrast, is tuned GDAE one octave below a mandolin.
    So, we have; violin, viola, violoncello, and double bass making up the violin family, and we have; mandolin, mandola, mandocello, and mandobass making up the mandolin family. Octave mandolin is a newer instrument that wasn't/isn't commonly used in mandolin orchestras, and as far as I know, there is no corresponding "octave violin", but I could certainly be wrong about that.
    There is a "tenor violin" that is today mostly a viola with heavier strings tuned down an octave from the violin. They are beautiful sounding IMO. Historically I think there was a violin shaped instrument in between the viola and the cello in both size and pitch but it fell from favor for some reason?
    Bernie
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    Default Re: Mandocello build thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    A little more non-glamorous progress. Since this is my first mandocello I didn't have a form. A trip to the hardware store and a trip to a local cabinetmaker (and musician) for some scrap plywood, and here's my form for building the body. I used some scrap lumber for the 'spreader'. Now, when time permits, I can bend the sides and glue up the rim.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Very cool! Now that you have the forms I guess you'll be making at least one mandocello a year? Need to get that return on investment eh?
    Bernie
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    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

  17. #39
    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandocello build thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    There is a "tenor violin" that is today mostly a viola with heavier strings tuned down an octave from the violin. They are beautiful sounding IMO. Historically I think there was a violin shaped instrument in between the viola and the cello in both size and pitch but it fell from favor for some reason?
    I suspect because it was like trying to stick a guitar under your chin

  18. #40
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandocello build thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    Very cool! Now that you have the forms I guess you'll be making at least one mandocello a year? Need to get that return on investment eh?
    At least one per year, I'm sure...
    Actually, there may never be another. That's one of the things about this business. My mandolin forms have been used many times, so the work that went into them is prorated over multiple instruments. My mandola form is in it's third use as we speak, my octave mandolin form has been used once, and this one is just now being put to use for the first time, and I still have to make a carving cradle for the top and back. Is it any wonder production shops seldom do custom shapes and new models?
    Even though this form may turn out to be a single use item, I can't directly charge the customer for the time to build it. It wouldn't be right to charge the first mandocello customer for tooling up any more than it would be right to charge the first mandolin customer for tooling up. Still, there will be much more time spent sanding the 'cello than making the form and carving cradle, so in the grand scheme of things, it's not such a major expense.

  19. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tavy View Post
    I suspect because it was like trying to stick a guitar under your chin
    LOL! There is a neuron in my brain that seems to recall a statement that explained that these instruments were played cello-like between the knees?
    Bernie
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    Default Re: Mandocello build thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    At least one per year, I'm sure...
    Actually, there may never be another. That's one of the things about this business. My mandolin forms have been used many times, so the work that went into them is prorated over multiple instruments. My mandola form is in it's third use as we speak, my octave mandolin form has been used once, and this one is just now being put to use for the first time, and I still have to make a carving cradle for the top and back. Is it any wonder production shops seldom do custom shapes and new models?
    Even though this form may turn out to be a single use item, I can't directly charge the customer for the time to build it. It wouldn't be right to charge the first mandocello customer for tooling up any more than it would be right to charge the first mandolin customer for tooling up. Still, there will be much more time spent sanding the 'cello than making the form and carving cradle, so in the grand scheme of things, it's not such a major expense.
    I assume the neck will be a modification of an arch top guitar neck?

    But I guess you will also have to carve a mandocello bridge, make a tail-piece -- lot's of custom stuff.

    Do you plan to do a treble side extension on the fret board?

    On the 3 mandocellos that I by conversion the scale lengths the guitars were 24.75", 25" and 22.5". But in all 3 cases I went with 25 frets under the D and A courses and 22 frets under the C and G courses.

    These fret boards were all about 1.5" at the nut (1.6" including the binding) and they tapered out to 1.9" at the 12th fret (2.0" including binding).

    Those dimensions were copied off the 1936 K-1 I have here. All the fret boards I made were two frets longer then the K-1 because the jumbo body size was so much bigger.

    This should be a great project to follow!
    Bernie
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    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

  21. #43
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandocello build thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    I assume the neck will be a modification of an arch top guitar neck?

    Do you plan to do a treble side extension on the fret board?
    1- Not really, it will be a big mandolin neck, more or less. Since it's being built from scratch, there is no reason to make a modified guitar neck. A lot will depend on the customer, whom I'll work closely with to determine the neck size and shape.

    2- I plan a slight treble extension, in that I'll probably use my usual S-curve end of the fingerboard. It's more for looks than anything else, I rather doubt that the last few frets will be used, and a square cut-off fingerboard just doesn't fit the curvy design of the thing, IMO.

  22. #44
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandocello build thread

    I got a chance to fire up the bending iron and scorch some wood. This maple wasn't easy to bend so I bent it pretty hot and I'll have to spend some time sanding away some scorch marks.
    It's hard to bend a piece of wood right to the end because there is no leverage to form the bend. I was hoping I could do that, though, because I had stock just long enough to bend the scroll-side piece from one piece of wood... if I could bend it right to the end and if nothing went wrong. The grain cracked in the scroll bend, so I had to cut a couple of inches off and revert to plan B, being a butt joint at the tail block (as is usual with a pear-shaped or "A" shape), no big deal.
    Because of leverage being useful when bending wood, I ended up with this curious shape for the point side piece.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Rather than cut the piece into lengths for the individual pieces of the rim, I bent all the parts for the point side rim from a continuous piece so I had wood to use for bending leverage and so that I would have less scrap and be able to get the whole rim from two pieces of wood. Here are the parts cut from the continuous piece.
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    Here are the parts for the whole rim.
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  24. #45
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandocello build thread

    I believe the question; "why is an F so much more expensive than an A?" may have come up one or two times (well, OK, maybe one or two hundred times). This is where the reasons start; bending the parts for the rim. Compare those parts to the two parts you see here in the mandola that is also in progress around here.
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    Only two pieces and two tight bends compared to 4 or 5 pieces, 7 tight bends and 3 miters. (Something to think about?)

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  26. #46
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandocello build thread

    Here are the rim parts adjusted in length and fitted into the form.
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    Remember those blocks from a few posts back? Here they are ready to be fit to the rim.
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    Once again, in an A there are two blocks as opposed to 4 for an F. Each block has to be hand fit to the rim for good glue joints; two relatively easy ones in an A, one relatively easy one and three complicated ones in an F.

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  28. #47

    Default Re: Mandocello build thread

    John, I hope I'm not bugging you with dumb questions but do the screw parts of these turnbuckles have a loop on the end like an eye screw? Just trying to learn. Thanks, Danny

  29. #48
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandocello build thread

    Yes, the ends are like screw eyes. I fit them pretty closely into the recessed holes, so that is where the pressure is applied, the screws and washers just keep them in there and keep the eyes from turning.
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  31. #49
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandocello build thread

    While I'm waiting for the glue to dry, here is the rim after fitting all the blocks, gluing them in place, clamping the head and tail block and using the spreader to clamp the corner blocks. I'll remove the clamps in a few hours, clean the rim up a little and get it ready for installing the linings for the top.
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  33. #50
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandocello build thread

    A little cleaning up, inside and out, and here's the glued-up rim. Still a few scorch marks, but there's still plenty of sanding to do.
    For now, it will stay in the form to maintain the shape. Thin pieces of bent wood, like the sides, tend to either straighten out (usually) or bend tighter (rarely) if left free to move, so keeping the rim in the form will keep it in shape until the top is glued on.
    Click image for larger version. 

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