No muscle memory?

[MandoGael]

I started to learn the mandolin fifteen years ago but never got on very well, partly due to a lack of application. Last year it was crunch time: either sell my beautiful Moon mandolin or else take it seriously. I chose to take it up again (in my mid fifties) and found a brilliant (and extremely patient!) teacher who is also a professional musician.

I've come on in leaps and bounds in the last six months and can play things now that were unimaginable at that time. Or, at least I can play them at home. This probably sounds like a familiar story but when I sit in front of my teacher to play the tunes, everything falls apart. I'm all thumbs and start to grip the instrument tightly. All the notes disappear and start to get jumbled up in my head. The result is that I can play parts of each tune but find it hard to play a complete version of anything, even though I'd performed it well at home the night before. The earlier tunes just seem to leave my head and I have to resort to reading the notes again.

That would probably point to my not knowing the tune properly. Using the ABC system, I sit down for about an hour each night and learn the tune. I go over the tricky bits and try to get them right. I also do some simple exercises. When I start to play, my fingers very often don't land where they should. It's as if muscle memory never kicks in. It might be that I'm thinking too much about the individual notes in a tune and not letting the tune itself carry me with it.

The trouble is that I'm hopeless at memorising notes (or anything else for that matter), even though I have the tune in my head. Maybe this is where my problem lies, in that I can't spell out the notes of a tune. Is this the normal method of doing it?

The funny thing is that I sometimes play well and get a glimpse of what I'm capable of doing. My long-suffering teacher says it takes loads of practice. He also says that I should play in public (in music sessions), something I've never done. I've always been a play-at-home musician and never had the nerve to play in front of others.

The other problem is that I'm very uptight when playing at home, even though I try to relax. Not sure why that is. I can feel tension in my arms and even in my jaw! I also tend to apply too much pressure to the strings. There's a weekend course in the Alexander Technique coming up soon and I was considering going along. Has anyone tried that approach?

Sorry about the long tale of woe but maybe someone could offer a bit of guidance.

Many thanks.

[UsuallyPickin]

Relax and quit trying to play perfectly. The more of your conscious mind is thinking "I've got to learn this so I don't look like a fool" the less you are thinking about learning the music. Ever player has plateaus /ladder rungs / steps that are difficult to get over . Take a breath , think about the music and how you want it to sound as you play it and get on with the business of learning to play..... R/

[mandocrucian]

You don'treally know the tune if you aren't able to vocalize it. If you can sing it, then it's in your head. Let your fingers learn to follow your ear. Playing is really singing on an instrument.

If you want additional mental help, then learn to sing the tune with Lyrics - which can be either the note names, sol-feg syllables, or the tab numbers, or the fingering. You now have attached additional 'information/instructions' to the melody.

In huge regions of the world, music instruction is imparted vocally before the kid ever gets an instrument. They sing the "song" which has all the pertinent "instructions" - so the instruction manual is already in place in their heads before they even struggle with the physical mechanics of trying to play the instrument.

Niles H

[Peter Coronado]

It's not unusual to play less than your best when nerves kick in. Musicians who go through the high pressure of auditions often notice that their playing at the audition isn't as good as their practice sessions. Playing in front of a teacher, even the kindest soul, can bring on nervousness.

You mentioned using ABC. Maybe this is a goofy question but are you converting the ABC to standard notation or tab? No shame in using it to help remember tunes you are learning or playing in front of the teacher.

About the tension you feel at home, maybe that isn't nervousness. Sometimes people bear down much harder than is actually necessary. Try to use the minimum force needed and only for as long as needed. Don't leave your muscles clenched up when you don't have to. Take some breaks and shake it out if you need to. Walk around and come back.

Finally, listen to Niles H! He's inspired lots of us here, me included.

[almeriastrings]

I think that basically, you are just stressing yourself out over this. Find tunes you like. Play them so they sound nice.

That might seem over-simplified after all the theory, but really, that is what it is all about. That is what it boils down to in the end.

Play them so you like the result, and you enjoy playing them. Forget everyone else.

[SincereCorgi]

It's not your muscle memory or your posture. Playing in front of someone is just different from playing alone in the practice room. It's harder. Everybody experiences this epiphany at some point or another. So, your teacher is right- the best way to cure this is to get experience playing front of others. It's not very good for your ego, and involves a certain amount of social awkwardness at first, but it will make you improve very quickly.

[Misty Stanley-Jones]

I have had similar struggles. In my lesson just today we realized that if I just try to play faster, a lot of the problems resolve. Now playing faster without knowing the tune is silly and useless but I know these. He says that maybe I tend to over-think it and get worried about missing a note. Missing a note is ok to do, it turns out. When I played faster, I missed heaps of notes. But my tone and phrasing improved, it was actually fun and actually sounded like music. Maybe try that every once in a while. Just play through, fast, and don't stop when you make a mistake. Then go back and carefully practice phrase by phrase. But sometimes just play the music. That's what I'm going to do.

[JeffD]

You don'treally know the tune if you aren't able to vocalize it. If you can sing it, then it's in your head. Let your fingers learn to follow your ear. Playing is really singing on an instrument.

This is so dead on it should be printed in the beginning of every method book for any instrument. You have one body, one brain. Anything you learn, you have learned, not just part of you.

I noticed this the other way around - that any tune I could really play from memory, I could sing. I can't think of an exception.

(It is probably possible to be able to play a tune you can't sing, but that would probably be because some interval or lick is easier to accomplish with fingers and frets than with than vocal chords. I haven't found one yet.)

When I am learning a new tune that I have access to a recording or a youtube, I listen enough till I can hum it or sing it. I try not to even pick up the instrument till I can sing it pretty accurately.

Its a little harder its a tune I am learning from a tunebook or sheet music, I will play it till I have the tune in my head, and then I step away and sing the melody out till I have it before I go back to the page.

Even if its a piece I never intend to play without the music in front of me, I find singing out the piece helps gigantically.

[fatt-dad]

Just want to echo Niles' comment, it's like singing the instrument. I'm always "hearing" what I'm going to play a few notes ahead.

f-d

[JeffD]

Lets say I can play something at a level 10 when I have worked on it, and I am playing in my room alone.

If I play in front of a group the best I can do is 8. It just is. Even a friendly group. Family, an instructor, jammers, whatever.

I have to get a tune up to level 12 to be able to play it at a level 10 in front of people. Just the way it is.

[Bertram Henze]

You can walk without a little prescription saying "left foot forward, right foot forward"? Then you have a muscle memory in operation (the correct term is procedural memory).

You just haven't stood up yet.

[JeffD]

You can walk without a little prescription saying "left foot forward, right foot forward"? Then you have a muscle memory in operation (the correct term is procedural memory).

You just haven't stood up yet.

I am not an athlete or a dancer. Someone knowledgeable about neurophysiology needs to check in. I don't know that muscles have memory. Isn't all memory in the brain? Remembering a hand position for example, feels like its in my hand, but really its in the brain.

All pain is in the brain. Right? I mean that the brain makes it feel like its in the wound, locates or assigns in your internal map, but the injured finger or foot doesn't have the pain. That's why amputees sometimes have phantom pain, because the internal mental map hasn't been updated.



Or, I might be totally wrong.

[Bertram Henze]

That's why amputees sometimes have phantom pain, because the internal mental map hasn't been updated.

The standard way to make that update of the internal mental map is the mirror box (it is still unclear if this map is really stored in the brain exactly like on a hard disc, though; more might be going on there).

Hey, maybe that's why some players need two mandolins

[Mark Wilson]

You don'treally know the tune if you aren't able to vocalize it. If you can sing it, then it's in your head. Let your fingers learn to follow your ear. Playing is really singing on an instrument.

+1

When I'm slow walking a new song, I sing the notes as I go - George Benson style.

When I struggle to focus, I sing the notes in my head (as loudly as possible) as I play

There is a interesting youtube video of a master instructor teaching this POV

edit: this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_7DgCrziI8 I like the 2:00 quote

[Jon Hall]

"The other problem is that I'm very uptight when playing at home, even though I try to relax. Not sure why that is. I can feel tension in my arms and even in my jaw! I also tend to apply too much pressure to the strings".

I advise my students to practice in front of a mirror. It will help you to relax if you can see how tense you are. This will do wonders for your posture. You are probably trying to play too fast and as a result you are tense. Slow down so you are playing clean notes and without tension.

Pressing the strings too hard will really impede your playing and could result in an injury to your fingers or hand.

Being nervous in front of your teacher is natural. It happens to most of my students. It will help if you are "warmed up" from playing 10 to 20 minutes immediately before your lesson. This may not be possible but it will really help if you can manage it. I bet you are playing better towards the end of your lesson than you are at the beginning.

Playing with other people is necessary in learning to play an instrument. If you are ready to play with others, would be a good question for you to ask your teacher.

[Tobin]

It's not your muscle memory or your posture. Playing in front of someone is just different from playing alone in the practice room. It's harder. Everybody experiences this epiphany at some point or another. So, your teacher is right- the best way to cure this is to get experience playing front of others. It's not very good for your ego, and involves a certain amount of social awkwardness at first, but it will make you improve very quickly.

I agree 100% with this, and thought it was worth repeating. I don't know what it is about playing in front of others, but it is just "different". When I was still new, I could practice something for days by myself. But when I'd want to play it for my wife (we've been married 17 years), it would just fall apart. It wasn't because I was nervous in front of strangers. But there's some sort of internal trigger that changes the dynamics when you're playing for someone else, as opposed to playing for yourself. The only way to make it go away is to keep playing for others and make so many mistakes that it's no longer a big deal. I still fall apart sometimes when playing at jams and such, but it's a work in progress. Every instance where I play in front of others makes me a little better at it.

As for tension, I used to have this problem too (and still struggle with it to some degree). When I'm really focusing on a difficult passage, I clench my jaw or find myself tensing up all over. One thing that I've found to be a great help with this is to get up and walk around while I'm playing. Seriously, try it. Assuming you have a good strap for your mandolin, try standing up and pacing back and forth, or walking in random circles around the room while playing. The movement of my legs seems to prevent my upper body from being as tense and rigid. And even though my brain is trying to handle more information at once (i.e. keeping my balance and moving in a coordinated manner), it seems to smooth out my playing.

I cannot really explain how or why it helps, but it works for me. Try it and see if it does anything for you.

[EdHanrahan]

MandoGael - Sounds to me like simple stage freight, as if stage freight could ever be "simple"! Even if it's "only" your patient instructor, this is the first time in your life performing music in front of another, so give yourself a break.

When I started mandolin, even after decades of guitar, I was surprised and almost shocked to find that: "everything falls apart. I'm all thumbs and start to grip the instrument tightly. All the notes disappear and start to get jumbled up in my head." Yeah, most of us have been there, and worked our way out of it... usually!

Consider that most learning young kids don't have enough life experience to be afraid of trying something new, or of being embarrassed in front of a teacher. To them, everything is new, and mistakes are part of learning. But you've accumulated some life experience, and know what it feels like to be competent at a task, and you inherently know that this "music" task puts you at an uncomfortably low level of competence. Recognizing that is a big part of the battle.

So ease up on yourself and don't demand grand perfection all at once. Instead of a whole tune, maybe learn just a line at a time until you can play it comfortably even without printed music, and then move on to the next. (That's what I'm doing on piano right now. Eventually, the music becomes more of a "reminder" rather than the roadmap that you must follow step-by-step).

Remember that most here are amateurs, and amateurs make more mistakes than you might think. "Competent" amateurs are comfortable with the occasional flub, and know that most listeners don't even hear them.

Another thought: Explain your dilemma to your teacher as well as you explained it to us, and he's sure to help you get over it. How well you play for him isn't a graded test that goes on Your Permanent Record.

But mostly: The only legitimate gauge of success, and the only reason for doing this at all, is how much fun you have. So take a deep breath, relax, smile, and ease on down the mando-road!

[Bertram Henze]

Ok, the tensing-up thing. Our body tenses up in any situation our procedural memory hasn't been trained for properly. To make up for lack of information where and when to put the energy, it wildly puts energy everywhere (aka panic). As if that wasn't enough, our rational thinking (aka declarative memory) tries to take over (wrongfully, because it hasn't practised the tune either) from the procedural memory it doesn't trust (rightfully). Maximum stasis.

Begin with the easy things, maybe only two measures of a tune, and do not proceed further until you can play that perfectly if woken up in the middle of the night or during the splatter scene in your favourite horror movie. When that has become second nature, and only then, do the next two measures - you'll find that you will reach the second-nature-status quicker the further you go, because learning is trained, too. Nothing else will do.

[Randi Gormley]

I wish i could say people were completely consistent, but they're not. I can play perfectly well when playing with my husband because I trust him not to think badly of me when I screw up, just like I don't think badly of him (I may raise an eyebrow, but I'll still give him a kiss and make lunch for him) when he messes up. I used to be afraid of playing for my teacher, but now I don't care if I mess up something I'm playing with him and he doesn't seem all that worried about messing up when we're playing duets. However, I can still get the shakes if I have to play a solo when I'm gigging out even tunes I've played for years. Reactions are just like that.

I had a student who used to tell me that she could play much better in practice than when I played with her and I absolutely understood that -- she felt like an amateur facing a professional (not the case, trust me!) or a beginner facing an expert ... it was the contrast that seemed to freeze her fingers. You just need to accept that it's going to happen and try to power through. Your teacher understands -- you should ask him to tell you stories about playing in front of people and compare notes.

[catmandu2]

singing on an instrument.

The body singing is a good conception: simply a more elaborate process of muscle coordination (than modulating the vocal chords in synchronization with the diaphragm) and in this case executed on a sound-producing instrument. Dance--which is a closer conception--is the same, only without a sonic element. It may be useful to consider the element of dance--perhaps even before we think of "singing": we must carefully learn the steps first, then employ them under strict consignment to time/rhythm; finally, if we coordinate our movements rhythmically--where there is increasing chance of success in executing music--we might allow our bodies to engage freely in the exercise of enjoyment--aesthetic deployment involving a variety of the senses

[MandoGael]

Thank you all so much for taking the time and effort in writing detailed replies (and for the videos!). The response has been amazing. There is plenty of advice there to incorporate into my practice and playing. The idea of singing the tune is particularly useful. I'm going to it now with renewed commitment and interest.

I'll be going to my first session on Wednesday night! My playing will hopefully improve more in the coming months.

Thanks again for all your help. Mandolin Cafe is a great resource.

S.

[Pete Martin]

Niles is correct. A great practice thing to do is SING OUT LOUD what you are learning. This tells you what you know and what you don't!

If I am in my car stopped at a light, I'm singing what I'm learning. Just as good as being at the instrument.

[bratsche]

A great practice thing to do is SING OUT LOUD what you are learning. This tells you what you know and what you don't!

Not necessarily. There comes a point (very early on, if your voice is anything near as bad/limited as mine is) at which the complexity of what you're learning to play far outpaces your, or even most normal people's, ability to "sing" (i.e. actually vocalize) it. That doesn't mean you don't "know it", though. You may just be singing it with your mind's superior voice, instead of out loud.

bratsche

[Tobin]

Wish I knew how to sing double-stops!

[bratsche]

Wish I knew how to sing double-stops!

Check out some overtone singing.
Of course three- and four-string chords would be impossible, though, unless "broken" and sung as separate notes.

bratsche