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Thread: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

  1. #1
    Registered User SpencerMando's Avatar
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    Default [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    So I got my fourth loar 520 in yesterday, I sent the other three back because they all had the same weird buzz-like sound at the 4th fret (wasn't quite a buzz, it was a little more high pitched). So when I get the fourth one in today I immediately notice that its nicer than the last 3, the wood has these subtle stripes. I tune it up and it has the same buzz. That made me kinda sad. I then proceeded to look at the headstock. What did I find? The two G strings actually touched each other up there where they go to the tuning pegs, probably due to the way that they are restrung at the factory. I put a little bit of a business card in-between the strings at the headstock, now there isn't any buzz and the thing sounds great.

    I wanted to ask if there is a more elegant solution than a strip of a business card? I'm thinking that it'll go away completely when I restring it.

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    The more elegant solution is to design the peghead so that the strings all pass with plenty of clearance, but it's too late for that.
    You might be able to wind the strings higher up or lower down the post each time you change strings in order to get some clearance, or perhaps wind on fewer or more wraps depending on which way the strings need to go for clearance, or depending upon who's business card you're using, that can pretty elegant itself!

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    Default Re: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    Can you please post a photo? I am having trouble picturing how a properly strung instrument's strings could touch each other at the headstock. Thanks,

    Rob

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    Registered User SpencerMando's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    I'm not at home now but I'll post pics in a few hours. Its absolutely bizarre. I've worked with guitars and basses for forever, I've seen my fair share of abnormalities but this is weird. Thanks sunburst, I was planning on winding both G strings differently so that they won't touch the next time

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    Default Re: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    It sounds to me like your nut is not cut properly. Might be fixable but you may need a new nut. Adjusting the nut is typically one of the things done with a complete setup.

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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    Spencer - if you've worked with guitars & basses for as long as you say,you certainly have the knowlege to figure out what's wrong here. I think that as Mandorich above mentions,the nut slots might be cut in the wrong positions,bringing the G strings too close together. Maybe just slacken them off so as to make them moveable,then push them around on top of the nut to see if you can get a better alignment without pushing them 'too far' one way or the other. If you can achieve better positions for the strings,a new nut could be the answer. It makes me wonder if the nut has been fitted the wrong way around with the G string slots where the E strings should be.Usually the treble strings can be closer together because of the finer gauges,
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    Cafe Linux Mommy danb's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    I put a little piece of felt just behind the nut under the strings on the peghead on just about everything I have, not for buzz typically, but you do get some unwanted sustain/strange overtones from those strings on *any* mandolin. I also put a bit of felt inside the tailpiece (under and above the strings!) to stop some odd ringing at that end
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    Registered User Wolfmanbob's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    This is not the first distress story that has been posted regarding this manufacturer. I would steer clear of these on that basis.
    RB - (Wolfman Bob)
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    Default Re: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    As I'm sure many of the shop owners can attest, I don't think the Loar sits in isolation with these issues compared to Kentucky or Eastman or certainly any of the other lesser named lower-end manufacturers. At least they put the frets on after the binding (just a pet peeve).

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    Registered User Wolfmanbob's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    As far as quality control, I'd say Eastman and Kentucky are the better of the low price mandolins. There are a bunch of other brands I will not name that are not worth bothering with. There are some other strands regarding this right now.
    RB - (Wolfman Bob)
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    Default Re: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    I've just been looking at pictures of "The Loar" headstocks on their website. It certainly does appear that the G strings are touching.
    It appears the tuners don't angle in towards the end of the headstock, which would have been less of a problem had they used worm over tuners.
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    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Jenner View Post
    I've just been looking at pictures of "The Loar" headstocks on their website. It certainly does appear that the G strings are touching.
    It appears the tuners don't angle in towards the end of the headstock, which would have been less of a problem had they used worm over tuners.
    This is one aspect of many modern mandolins that I've never really understood. The strings come off the nut slots and then have to bend sideways to reach the tuning posts. It would seem to make more sense to angle the tuners a bit more so it reduces the break angle of the strings. This would make it easier to string the mandolin, reduce side-load on the nut slots, and reduce binding/friction when adjusting the tuning.

    Some (most?) builders at least give enough of an angle to the tuners so that the strings have a minimal amount of clearance between each other. Apparently the folks at The Loar don't understand the problem. I looked at their website too, and it does appear that the G strings are touching where the second one passes the wraps on the post of the first one. It would be a problem on the E strings too, except that their small diameter provides enough clearance.

  18. #13

    Default Re: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    Touching can be ok, it is when the strings just lightly touch that they start buzzing. Messing around with the winding should cure the buzz.
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  19. #14

    Default Re: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    Could it be that one of the G strings is wound on the string post in the wrong direction. I know this sounds bizarre but without pictures it is hard to tell what is going on..

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    Default Re: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    What Robert said above. The second G on my mando contacts the first one as it passes the post, but it hits it firmly, and I've never noticed any buzzing. String movement on the far side of the nut should be extremely minimal anyway. I used to weave a small leather strip through the strings above the nut, but I gave it up. Never noticed any change in overtones.
    Mitch Russell

  21. #16

    Default Re: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    You ended up with the best looking mandolin of the bunch, and you seem to have diagnosed and solved the buzzing issue on your own. The title of your thread seems a bit extreme.

  22. #17
    Registered User belbein's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    Quote Originally Posted by danb View Post
    I put a little piece of felt just behind the nut under the strings on the peghead on just about everything I have, not for buzz typically, but you do get some unwanted sustain/strange overtones from those strings on *any* mandolin. I also put a bit of felt inside the tailpiece (under and above the strings!) to stop some odd ringing at that end
    Can you post pictures, please?
    belbein

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    Default Re: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    I assume this is what we are talking about. I got this off The Loar's site.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Bark first, Bite later Steve Zawacki's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    Took a couple photos of my 520, specifically of the area in question. On mine the G strings are at the same height on the tuner posts. Also there is a visible gap (albeit a small one) between the G strings at the lower tuning post.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    ...Steve

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    Wood and Wire Perry Babasin's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    My The Loar 600 looks like that from the front but the first G passes below the second G and does not touch. Perhaps the way the strings are wound around the posts is squirrely. I think restringing is a good first option and some people wind a little piece of leather between the pairs, usually down behind the bridge but also up top to help with buzzes and rattles around the headstock. For the record I have read threads criticizing all of the brands mentioned in this thread for cosmetic or minor physical fit or finish problems (especially The Loar). I think instruments at this price point need TLC either by the dealer or the owner. The trade off is affordability. Some folks are in positions to afford a stable of impressive instruments... the rest of us chase the sound. I think the gap is getting closer.

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  27. #21

    Default Re: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    I assume this is what we are talking about. I got this off The Loar's site.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Hmm, being a total beginner, I do have to ask this. Just how important is setup beyond the nut? My Loar strings don't come near each other, but a nylon piece of the strap was touching the nut and the strings. Just wondering if that would have an impact.

  28. #22

    Default Re: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    It's not very significant, but any rattles or buzzes up there will be heard while you play.

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    Default Re: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    Thanks Old Sausage! I am learning new things all the time ...

  31. #24
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    Perhaps I didn't elaborate enough in my first post of this thread.
    It is a design flaw. A design for a stringed instrument is not finished until the string paths are determined and accounted for. Someone designed the peghead and the tuner positions without consideration of the string paths, and we end up with the better part of a page of remedies for string buzzing. Things like pieces of felt, business cards, moving nut slots and so forth, when a better design would have made the whole conversation moot.
    Things like string paths are easily overlooked by inexperienced builders designing instruments, and apparently, in the company's haste to bring these things to market at a favorable price point it was overlooked, perhaps because they didn't want to pay to have an experienced hand involved in the design, perhaps because some exec-type was in charge and didn't put the right person on this part of the design, we don't know, but it went into production this way regardless, and now that the tooling is set up and that investment is already made, it would probably be a costly thing for the manufacturer to change.
    Sorry for the rant (I could go on, believe me!) but it's one of my pet peeves about manufactured goods, especially those intended for the "bargain" market.

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  33. #25
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Loar Update] I'm a proper idiot.

    Now we see why the "snakehead" headstock was a good idea.
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