The Loar production issues?

[SpencerMando]

That pro fine arte place is extremely close. Is the Km 160 any good?

Thanks

[jesserules]

I haven't played a 160. The KM-150 is well-regarded, the KM-350S, a step above that in price, is very good, the KM-505 is excellent. Of course individual instruments vary, but having a real specialist acoustic instrument store near you, where you can sample a few different models and get a proper setup done, is priceless.

[Steve Zawacki]

As you can see, some folk praise a brand and others don't. That's just the nature of things. The same issues will follow all brands regardless.

What is probably most significant is that there appears to be a place not far from you where you can "hands-on" several instruments, find out what service is provided (e.g., what does their set-up consist of) and go from there. The excellent dealers who participate here provide a thorough description of what they do for dealer set-up, and having that knowledge for comparison purposes is invaluable. Who knows, the local place may even have a couple other-brand used instruments to broaden the comparison.

Kentucky mandolins are part of the Saga instrument family, and you can do a lot of research on them at the Saga website, as well as from past review threads here. Personally, I don't see them as better/worse than The Loar or other of the major names made in China, but more a matter of personal choice (hand-fit and other ergonomics). In the end, the goal seems to be getting a good, well set-up instrument which has that "ah-hah" factor, rather than settling for something. A well set-up Kentucky may be in the cards.

[SpencerMando]

SteveZ I'd like to personally thank you for all the advice that you've given me. You've responded to every single post of mine, in hindsight I seem (and am) incredibly ignorant and I thank you for putting up with that so to speak. I've learned so much, and I know that its going to work out soon.

[Steve Zawacki]

SteveZ I'd like to personally thank you for all the advice that you've given me. You've responded to every single post of mine, in hindsight I seem (and am) incredibly ignorant and I thank you for putting up with that so to speak. I've learned so much, and I know that its going to work out soon.

Thanks for the kind words, but when it comes to "mandolin" I'm simply a product of a lot of great advice and help from all the folk on this forum. I pretty much am just restating a lot of what I've learned here. I'm a "former" guitar guy who first thought of mandolins as smaller guitars and learned quickly how wrong that thought was. I have to give a tip-of-the-hat to a lot of folk, a few of whom are within this thread.

Viel Glueck!

[Perry Babasin]

Don't beat yourself up too badly Spencer! Unless you have a lot of money to throw around (I sure don't) the mandolin world can be very confusing and frustrating. $3,000; $4,000; $10,000; $30,000; $250,000. The problem is we all want $30,000 fit and finish, tone and playability for $500. I think that fuels MAS more than anything. I have taken solace in messing around with them, trying to make cheaper instruments better. So far so good!!

[almeriastrings]

One other thing worth adding (that is a 'golden rule' often cited here) is that in the lower price ranges, and higher too, for that matter, you get far better value and quality with an A-style than with F-styles. Generally, in the less-than-€1,000 range you are looking at 'very' cheap F-styles with a lot of compromises, but you can still get a very nice quality A-style. There is a lot of work in building and finishing an F-style to even an acceptable standard... this costs money, and in those cheap ranges, corners are cut, and shortcuts are taken. Even with lower cost base manufacturing in China, you still can't get something for nothing. The lowest cost F-style I would personally recommend at all is the Kentucky KM-855, followed by the KM-1000, meanwhile, for half to one third of those prices, you can get some very nice sounding, very playable A-styles from both Kentucky and Eastman.

If you really want an F-model, it is often better to keep on saving and then look for the best price on a good used one. The low-end ones can be a lot of trouble.

[Delaware]

I was about to make a thread asking about folkmusician.com's over $100 dollar price difference between the Loar LM-520 with "extensive" setup and without "extensive" setup and if it was really worth that much. But after reading this thread, maybe it is.

[ccravens]

I was about to make a thread asking about folkmusician.com's over $100 dollar price difference between the Loar LM-520 with "extensive" setup and without "extensive" setup and if it was really worth that much. But after reading this thread, maybe it is.

I would say "definitely" it is.

[Steve Zawacki]

I was about to make a thread asking about folkmusician.com's over $100 dollar price difference between the Loar LM-520 with "extensive" setup and without "extensive" setup and if it was really worth that much. But after reading this thread, maybe it is.

It compares to buying a Japanese or Korean car and picking it up at the dock as it's unloaded versus at the local dealer after pre-delivery prep has been done (ever notice the sticker charge for that?). The threads within this forum show over and over again that a luthier set-up prior to delivery has an extremely positive effect on the musician's satisfaction with a first-owner mandolin, and how many performance complaints there are when such a set-up isn't done, brand immaterial.

I'm one who bought his first mandolin via the internet prior to gaining valuable knowledge mainly here on this forum. I too bought other instruments via "catalog sales" and rarely had a problem. My first mandolin purchase was an eye-opening experience (thank heaven an inexpensive one). Subsequent purchases employed what I've learned here coupled with great advice from dealers who frequent this forum, resulting in each new mandolin fulfilling a specific purpose and all having had luthier inspection and set-up prior to delivery. That has really increased my enjoyment of this unique instrument.

[Wolfmanbob]

Any dealer that charges extra to set up an instrument your buying from them is a creep. It's like buying a car and getting charged for air in your tires.

[Franc Homier Lieu]

Any dealer that charges extra to set up an instrument your buying from them is a creep. It's like buying a car and getting charged for air in your tires.

Any dealer that charges you less not to set up an instrument (that is, all those online discount dealers that never open the box that came from the factory) is a creep. Its like buying a car and getting a discount because it has not been safety inspected and whatever else dealers do with those 2 ton hunks of metal that come off a freight train from who knows where to get them ready to sell.

[OldSausage]

Any dealer that charges extra to set up an instrument your buying from them is a creep. It's like buying a car and getting charged for air in your tires.

But no-one does that. They either sell it set up or they don't, and the price reflects that - because people have to eat.

[Wolfmanbob]

Once again, this shows, you get what you pay for.<Removed by Moderator. Please review the Posting Guidelines>

[Herbm55]

Dang it! Where did I put that 10 foot pole??

[allenhopkins]

Any dealer that charges extra to set up an instrument your buying from them is a creep. It's like buying a car and getting charged for air in your tires.

Depends on what you mean by "charging extra." Local dealers here have to maintain their shops, hire staff, pay for advertising, save for their retirements, etc. etc. They can't cover the entire US from a warehouse in Kansas. They have to earn a higher profit per instrument sold than a big online seller.

In return, they do set-ups, adjustments, take trade-ins, often provide lessons, and work with their customers to ensure satisfaction. Is that worth the higher price? You as a buyer have to be the judge of that.

Even on-line dealers vary their prices depending on what work they put into prepping their mandolins. Take the popular Kentucky KM-150, a good solid-wood entry-level instrument. Musician's Friend sells it for $231; Elderly for $250, Mandolin Store for $299, and Folkmusician.com for $300.

The latter three sellers do shop set-ups on their mandolins; Musician's Friend doesn't. So, are they "creeps" for charging an extra $17-70 for a proper set-up?

While there aren't any guarantees, I'd be surprised if someone purchasing a Loar from one of these sellers, would have encountered the same issues the OP found with his Thomann purchases. And what is his time worth, dealing with improperly set-up mandolins, sending 'em back, ordering another, sending that one back, etc. etc.?

[Caleb]

Time is money. Paying for a good setup is money well spent.

[Wolfmanbob]

That's not what I mean Allen. The price is the price and they are entitled to charge for their service. I happily buy from premium stores because they give more choices and services. I'm really thinking of the store that will advertise a price to pull you in and then when you're ready to buy, they tack on a fee for setting it up.

[Verne Andru]

I was about to make a thread asking about folkmusician.com's over $100 dollar price difference between the Loar LM-520 with "extensive" setup and without "extensive" setup and if it was really worth that much. But after reading this thread, maybe it is.

I've done lots of setups on guitars, basses and mandolins and can say from experience $100 for an "extensive" setup - meaning fret level & dress, cutting nut slots to proper depth and making sure the bridge is seated properly to the top - is a bargain. It can take me 4 to 5 hours once the dust settles, and I generally know what I'm doing. I'd go out of business real quick if this was how I was trying to earn a living.

[Jai]

I bought a The Loar LM300 from Thomann a few years ago. It was definitely not set up - it buzzed, the action was high, some frets needed levelling. But I was prepared for this (from reading Cafe posts) and had budgeted for it (also at the time there was pretty much nowhere else to get one in Europe). I took it to a luthier, had a cumberland acoustic bridge fitted (ordered from the States), frets levelled, nut slots filed, truss rod adjusted slightly and ended up with a great sounding, easy playing, good looking mandolin. It's not as loud or toneful as my Gibson - but at the time was just about the best mandolin I'd ever played.

Nowadays it is possible to buy The Loar mandolins from Kieran Moloney in Ireland (NFI) who appears to know about mandolins (he's a cafe member) and offers a similar set up service (even installing cumberland acoustic bridges) to people like Robert Fear et al I think Moloney Music (www.moloneymusic.com) would be a perfect place to order from, even from Germany, because their prices are in euros (no currency exchange) - within the EU (no import tax) and he offers free shipping to Western Europe. I think you can't go wrong with that. I'm certain it will be a much better buying experience than buying from Thomann or anywhere else that doesn't really understand the instruments they are selling.

[Delaware]

Yes. I have read many threads here about how nice the Loars are but they require extensive setup. One post (can't find it now) said the dealer felt Loar was abusive on the amount of work that had to be done to make a rough quality mandolin a playable gem. Bascially that Loar was counting on the dealer to do the heavy lifting.

[Paul Hird]

I think I posted this somewhere else on the forum, but I purchased a The Loar 500 from my local shop and had an issue with the neck not being as straight as it should have been. Being new to the mandolin, I didn't know anything about the issue. My local dealer includes the set up and a second inspection after the instrument has been played for a while. When he noticed it he immediately called to have another one sent out. I didn't have to chase anyone down or spend any time on the phone. The service and support of my local shop was fantastic. The replacement was in excellent shape and required very little set up. I Will always buy from a local shop when I can.

[Tobin]

That's not what I mean Allen. The price is the price and they are entitled to charge for their service. I happily buy from premium stores because they give more choices and services. I'm really thinking of the store that will advertise a price to pull you in and then when you're ready to buy, they tack on a fee for setting it up.

Do any dealers/stores do that? As far as I know, most of them will sell you the item as-is, or with a setup (and the additional fee, if they are capable of doing setups). But it's a customer option. I haven't seen anybody that does a bait-and-switch where they tack on a setup fee to the base price without full disclosure up front.

I agree, if any of them are doing that, it's not a good business practice.

[allenhopkins]

That's not what I mean Allen. The price is the price and they are entitled to charge for their service. I happily buy from premium stores because they give more choices and services. I'm really thinking of the store that will advertise a price to pull you in and then when you're ready to buy, they tack on a fee for setting it up.

Agree that would be unwelcome -- unless they offered you the choice: "buy it 'as is' for a deep discount, or we'll set it up but we'll have to charge you for it."

I've been seeing a bunch of "as is" used instruments offered by some of the more respected sellers, and I assume if one talked to the dealer and asked what he/she'd charge for a set-up, the cost could be added to the purchase price.

I really respect dealers who won't let any instruments go out the door without doing a shop set-up. They realize that if a customer tells others that the instrument he/she purchased was not properly set up, whether the dealer warned of this or not, other potential customers are discouraged.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Well,purely for any UK members who read this thread,may i put in a good word(s) for TAMCO. I've purchased 4 mandolins from Trevor,2 of which i still own,& they've been set up perfectly each time.
My own point of view regarding adding 'hidden extras' on for a set up,is that it's a bit ingenuous. Far better that the stores that do carry out a good set up,add the cost & display the full price & word their ad. - ''including a full set-up'',just so that the prospective buyer knows that there is an add-on charge. I have no problem paying for the 'extra',in fact i'd much rather pay the charge for the peace of mind of knowing that (hopefully), the instrument will arrive 'ready to go',
Ivan