violin to mandolin, your experience please

[bratsche]

I'm going to regret asking this--since I am still reeling from finding out there are multiple tenor cleffs and bass cleffs--but what's "half position"?

Why, it's a half step lower than first position! The lowest position there is.

It's most useful on longer-scaled instruments, and mainly utilized transitionally in passages occurring in keys with many accidentals, or to play the most logical and fluid (or "least awkward") fingering in chromatic passages.

bratsche

[Bertram Henze]

I'm lucky in that my teachers both always smelled good, or at least clean, didn't smoke or have bad breath, etc. I wonder how much correlation there is between such things and whether a student continues playing or just quits?

Quitting was not an option for me back then, so it was just another brick in the wall (apologies, Mr Waters) that had written "violin ain't fun" all over it.*

*someone will point out that violins don't kill motivation, people do. For brevity, I'll say in advance that until it will become possible to avoid people I'll make do with second best, i.e. avoiding the violin, and that playing the mandolin has helped me a lot with that.

[Bertram Henze]

...I should have said "physiognomic" (if there is such a word) rather than ergonomic..

The word exists indeed, and in this context it would mean to judge an instrument's sound from its appearance ("just look at it, can't trust that thing with a full chord")

[JeffD]

Why, it's a half step lower than first position! The lowest position there is.

There are some cool Irish tunes in Bb that are played that way. At least in my mind that's how it feels.

[catmandu2]

The word exists indeed, and in this context it would mean to judge an instrument's sound from its appearance ("just look at it, can't trust that thing with a full chord")

It gets "a little hairy up there"--when playing triads above lower positions; although, playing "broken" chords facilitates chording--allowing intonation adjustments with each discrete note. Still, there's not room for my fingers to make many chord forms on a violin fingerboard, while I'm able on oud and doublebass

[SincereCorgi]

It's most useful on longer-scaled instruments, and mainly utilized transitionally in passages occurring in keys with many accidentals...

I dunno, I just use it to play in, say, F.

[bratsche]

Sure, if the scale is long enough, why not? I probably do that too on my GOM. I was mainly thinking about my viola when I wrote that, since I'd earlier commented that as a violist, I'm fond of second and half positions. Doubt I'd use half position in F on the viola, though.

bratsche

[JeffD]

Maybe advanced players who are also teachers remain more consciously aware of their positions while they play, because they use that knowledge in communication with their students. But I don't teach. So for me, positions are like road maps - once I learned the way, I stopped most mental referring to them specifically anymore.

I love when something old becomes new, when ideas can be borrowed from one arena and suddenly everything is seen in a new light, and then that new light gets shined on the other arena and new epiphanies sprout over there. Back and forth and back again.

So I am thinking about FFcP, and how it creates a fret board where no road map is needed. Where you can ignore the terrain if you want. Where (ultimately) playing in any key is as easy as playing in any other key.

I showed this to my violin teacher years ago, but she never seemed to really "get it". This was in response to how big a deal it was for my mandolin playing to learn positional thinking, and to share another way of navigation from the mandolin world back to the fiddle universe.

[bratsche]

Jeff, I have to admit I never could get into the FFcP business. I have no doubt that it's very valuable, and that I could potentially learn a lot from it, especially in areas where I'm weak or altogether unlearned, like harmonic theory and especially modes. In a perfect world, perhaps I would, one in which I had countless hours available for unlimited learning of new things.

However, the FFcP "method" did not grab me by the brain right away, because the first thing I saw were fretboard diagrams. And my mind doesn't learn naturally by looking at fretboard diagrams - it may sound silly to some, but they are a foreign language to me. Not quite hieroglyphics or Kanji characters, but nonetheless, one requiring a little too much a.) staring at the fretboard head-on and then b.) relating it to the pictures, and finally c.) making the mental translation into something more familiar, i.e. notes on the staff. So it did not hold my interest as much as it might have if it had begun with getting to see the notes written. I'm not surprised that your violin teacher did not "get it." Actually, it's kind of reassuring to me because I see I'm not alone, and sometimes I feel backwards or dumb when I read people raving about FFcP. But I guess that as a rule, we're just not programmed (for lack of a better word) from a young age to think in terms of the FFcP methodology.

So I know where you're coming from, and it's great when an idea brings new light to an old subject, and produces "aha" moments. Just the act of playing on both a bowed and a plucked instrument has done that for me a lot, and the "cross training" has made me a better musician at each, whether I can pinpoint and verbalize the exact reasons and specific influences, or whether they just "happen" on a subconscious level. Even though the first instrument I learned had no frets, the act of learning one that did have frets had an ultimate effect of making even my fretless world more familiar and secure. If that makes any sense to you...

bratsche

[lottarope]

"cross training" lol I like that. I cant think of a more fitting term. Just like crosstraining can help get athletes out of a rut and improve preformance I think this kind of cross training can do the same for musicians. It adds adds mental and techincal flexability to my playing.

[SincereCorgi]

...it's great when an idea brings new light to an old subject, and produces "aha" moments.

I get what you mean... I'm sort of ambivalent about FFCP, but I can see how it would work for a lot of people. It reminds me of the 'CAGED' system for guitar players, where it's ultimately a simplification of some fundamental concepts about position playing and chord inversions, but for a lot of players it's worthwhile because it turns on a lightbulb.

[Richard58]

I'v played fiddle for abt 38 years, the bow came natural to me. My problem is the pick on the mandolin...hi all

[Joel Glassman]

I did this.
When I start thinking of the fingerboard as moving chord shapes,
my violin soloing became much more structured and musical. A big change.
All because of playing mandolin

[bratsche]

I see that term "chord shapes" used around here at the Cafe a lot, but not at all in my real life of playing in orchestras. What does it actually mean (assuming it has a specific meaning)? I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I don't have a clue. Does it have something to do with chord inversions?

bratsche

[Bertram Henze]

I see that term "chord shapes" used around here at the Cafe a lot, but not at all in my real life of playing in orchestras. What does it actually mean (assuming it has a specific meaning)?

I guess it's an ffcp word, meaning these pretzelistic fingering patterns. For doing the power-B-chord, 4-4-2-2 is one possible corresponding chord shape. Now you can move that shape up and down the fretboard (5-5-3-3 is the power-C-chord etc) you can transpose without thinking, or so the ffcp people say.
But I may be totally wrong. I'm an open chord guy - when I need to transpose, there is that capo I have...

[lottarope]

Josie at some point check out the ffcp stuff. When I read through it it really opened up the neck for me. I don't claim to be any expert at it, but that concept really helped both mando and violin for me. When i first started playing mando it would have overwelmed me, but when i was about two years down the road into playing it really made sense. Personally now i use a capo to change where i can get open ringing tones but mostly it gets in the way. If the capo works better for you like Bertram says use it, I've played with some really good players who do.

[catmandu2]

I guess it's an ffcp word...

ffcp is more scalar in its concept and function (although of course it can be applied to chords as well--simply by building chords from the scales). "Chord shapes/forms" is common vernacular and usage to any "chording" instrument--take for example tenor banjo: we use 12 basic forms for the inversions -- 3 maj, 3 min, 4 7th, 1 each for aug and dim. For guitar--there are many more. Jazz and improvising bassists also use a similar heuristic: common to use "box"-conceptions for example (which are basically chord-form or ffcp conceptions); simply devices to facilitate navigation

[josie]

Josie at some point check out the ffcp stuff. When I read through it it really opened up the neck for me. I don't claim to be any expert at it, but that concept really helped both mando and violin for me. When i first started playing mando it would have overwelmed me, but when i was about two years down the road into playing it really made sense. Personally now i use a capo to change where i can get open ringing tones but mostly it gets in the way. If the capo works better for you like Bertram says use it, I've played with some really good players who do.

well I'm lost here with all this discussion about ffcp and chor shapes.. sounds like Japanese to me!
is there any ffcp for dummies out there?

I went to my first lesson last Monday!
it start ok, my teacher help me with how to hold the pick. did some scales.. got 2 musical piece to work on: Amedeo (Raffaele Calace) and a sonatina (Beethoven).
I have to practice

[lottarope]

I read about it at jazzmando.com there is a link to FFcP on their home page. It really helped me. If its too much right now keep it in mind and come back to it later. Pick and have fun

[Adam Sweet]

I studied classical violin for 14 years before picking up my first mandolin. I was playing with a bluegrass band at the time, and wanted an instrument I could sing with. I'd noodled around on a friend's mandolin and realized how similar it was to the violin, so I thought I could learn how to hold it and play it fairly easily. Now, 34 years later, I'm glad I did!

[josie]

Hi!!
just wanted to ad that I just bought a new mandolin!















On the sticker inside it says:
no.20901 style 1615 model 1915

According to brunello97 here it wasprobably built beetween 1915 and 1917.
I know I did not make a great deal for it, since it's an average instrument, but it sounds real good.
I'll bring it to a luthier to make sure it's well adjust (brunello97 talk about the bridge not being at the right place).

I'm amazed that this instrument is that old! I tough it was a copy of an old one... and had difficulties believing the seller story : this instrument was give as a gift for his grandfather. He was a mechanics in WW2, fight in France and had take shelter in a farm with the help of the elderly couple that lived there. 20 years after the end of the war He visit them back and the men had died but the widow give him this mandolin.

[Jim Garber]

Washburn mandolins are very nice and yours looks to be in excellent shape. The fancy ones, for the most part, do not sound any better than the simple and plain ones. Yours is made of quality wood -- Brazilian rosewood and fine spruce so I think you did fine.

[Aleg]

Hello,

I would like to know if some of you had the same problem as me :
I'm a violin player, and since I've begun playing the mandolin, calluses have developped on my fingertips...
And now my fingertips slide too much on my violin fingerboard, there's not that little adherence and sensation I liked anymore, and it has become hard to play...
Do some of you have a solution to that ?

Thanks
(and sorry if strange english, I'm french)

[Jim Garber]

Hello,

I would like to know if some of you had the same problem as me :
I'm a violin player, and since I've begun playing the mandolin, calluses have developped on my fingertips...
And now my fingertips slide too much on my violin fingerboard, there's not that little adherence and sensation I liked anymore, and it has become hard to play...
Do some of you have a solution to that ?

Thanks
(and sorry if strange english, I'm french)

I switch back and forth and have some pretty deep callouses from playing guitar and mandolin over the years. I am not sure what solution there is. Maybe a bit of powdered rosin or talcum powder on your fingers when playing violin? I never had that problem. I am not sure why your fingers would slide on the fingerboard. You may just need to press down a little harder on the violin—but not too much. Hopefully someone ele will have a similar problem as yours and will suggest something that worked for him or her.

[Aleg]

I switch back and forth and have some pretty deep callouses from playing guitar and mandolin over the years. I am not sure what solution there is. Maybe a bit of powdered rosin or talcum powder on your fingers when playing violin? I never had that problem. I am not sure why your fingers would slide on the fingerboard. You may just need to press down a little harder on the violin—but not too much. Hopefully someone ele will have a similar problem as yours and will suggest something that worked for him or her.

Hey Jim,

Thank you for your answer. I also thought about talcum powder but it will probably be weird-looking, and penetrating in the strings etc...

The problem is that the calluses don't have any "fingerprint relief" and are harder and dryer than the pulp I had before, so they slide on the fingerboard like pebbles on ice... I don't have anymore control ^^

Even if I press down harder the sensations are bad compared to before.

Never mind, I'll try to adapt with time or quit one of the two instruments ^^

Thanks again

Antoine