Trying to date/source/validate Gibson F-4

[Steve Cantrell]

Hello gentlemen.

I came across this mandolin in a Pawn Shop with what amounted to a collection of vintage mandolins. The mandolins were all in varying conditions but it was really something to see--some of which were in Dan B's Mandolin Archive. A number of residents of my town surprisingly picked up some great instruments. This one in particular caught my eye based on sound and looks...but it is a mystery, apparently. I have a theory of what I think it might be, but I wanted to put it in front of you guys and see what you think.

The orange point on the back pic is where the previous owner apparently rubbed some epoxy on the crumbling heel cap, which should be a fairly easy fix--just wanted someone else's opinion on this mandolin.

I've added a note the previous owner left in the case which should increase confusion. All of the instruments included a card where he dated string changes and made notes on them. Also INSIDE the instrument as well.

[mrmando]

Tiny photos. Long neck, hmmm .... some kind of mid-century F5 that's been retopped?

[Steve Cantrell]

Oh, my fault. Let me fix that.

[allenhopkins]

Serial number 127672 would be 1960's (?), when they didn't make F-4's. I believe when the mandolin headstock inlay went from "The Gibson" to "Gibson" it was inlaid straight across, rather than angled as this one is. And the fleur-de-lis inlay is not one I've seen on other Gibson mandolins, especially not F-4's.

Also, the pickguard is a bit suspect.

However, there are Cafe´-ers with much more expertise than I; awaiting their analyses...

[pfox14]

This is most definitely not a Gibson. Logo is wrong. Peghead inlay is bizarre. Tailpiece is also wrong. Just looks like a bad copy of an F-4.

[Timbofood]

Possible conversion from a "lump scroll" A-5 or did lumpy make his debut later? Memory has been jarred by hours of snow blowing!

[Steve Cantrell]

This is most definitely not a Gibson. Logo is wrong. Peghead inlay is bizarre. Tailpiece is also wrong. Just looks like a bad copy of an F-4.

Actually, if you look at this mandolin then I would disagree with you concluding it is not a Gibson. Identical neck on this mando. Who bothers to replace a top and back though?

[Steve Cantrell]

And for that matter, follow binding specs which weren't particularly attractive. The top has nothing that says anything other than really well done hand carving, as does the back.

[Steve Cantrell]

Also identical tailpiece on the Mickey.

[Jim Garber]

I agree with Steve. My guess is a custom ordered F-4 based on the A-5 -- sort of what the collector wrote on his tag.

[Steve Cantrell]

Thanks Jim. I think the original owner was probably closer on his first guess. It is definitely unusual. The tone is out of this world. Go figure.

[f5loar]

either you guys are still hung over from NYE, or the original owner was wacked out on some man-made mind altering drug. This is nothing more than an early to mid-70's standard catalog spec. Gibson A-5 with an altered pickguard. Nothing custom ordered about it. They changed the 2 pointer 60's A-5 round hole (aka Jethro) to this lumpy scroll round hole. The A-12 lumpy had the F holes. Everything is straight line catalog spec. for the 70's A-5 except the pickguard which was changed out. The serial no. is one of those hard to translate due to overlap of same serial nos. in 60's and 70's. In fact Gibson didn't even bother to keep track of those 70's nos. so all they know is made between late 1970 and 1975. The original date looks to be 1973 on that tag so I would go with that as the date. They do tend to have that prewar F4 sound in a lumpy sort of way.

[mrmando]

Er ... Tom, did you look at the scroll? Second photo in this post:
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...=1#post1239208

[f5loar]

Wow! I'm still hung over. I didn't blow up the photos and put my glasses on. Yeap you got an odd ball there for sure. Still got a 70's there. All parts conform to 70's except pickguard. Custom ordered? Very possible since it is more of a round hole 70's F12 although neck heel same as the A5. What is throwing me is the label. It should read A-5 Custom and it does not. I don't see anything other than a factory job on the scroll along with original factory 70's finish.

[almeriastrings]

The label is fishy. Evidence of dot matrix printing or badly screened copying. The plywood ( ) on the back is more what you'd see on a Japanese copy than an original..... a copy with 'accessories' to make it appear genuine? I am no expert on 70's Gibsons (as I don't normally pay them too much attention or even see many), but something about this one is not right at all.

[Mike Snyder]

Is that heel button and the line of the arch up toward the button right? That looks almost Flatiron/Weberish. I love a good mandolin mystery.

[Steve Cantrell]

A few things to note. I don't think the top or back has ever been removed. Whomever finished it left off about halfway along the inside of the scroll curve and the finish is a continuous line across the binding and sides which looks undisturbed. The neck matches the mandolin above and isn't a hack job. It is well done. Greg Boyd also had what he considered a late sixties F-5 with a matching neck to this mandolin. Questions abound.

[Steve Cantrell]

I'm home sick today so I am going to restring it and have a look inside.

[f5loar]

the label is 100% correct for a 70's label. The way the numbers are written in ink are also correct. Even the handwriting matches examples I have in my files. The fingerboard with those extra smaller dots at the end is something Gibson did and not the imports. Came on the F12/A5/A12 70s models only. The back heel on the neck along with the volute is all Gibson for the 70's A5. The peghead, truss rod cover and inlays are spot on for the 70's A5. Tailpiece and tuners in nickel plate also correct. Round hole inlaid pattern is correct also. Color and sunburst finish is correct for the A5. The lumpy models used lessor quality maple and did not have much grain pattern. This one does have some birdseye, also typical of a 70's Gibson mandolin. The only odd thing is the F12 body on the A5 neck. A custom order could do that. And who with any half brains would want to copy the 70's A5 like this? It's a factory Gibson 1973 A5/A12 Custom order. This was the only round hole model made in the 70's so my guess is someone really wanted a new Gibson round hole but did not want the ugly lumpy scroll so he paid a little extra to the the F12 scroll on an otherwise A5 model.

[J.Albert]

This is an A-5 from the early 1970's.

It was either:
1. A factory-custom order with a real scroll in place of Mickey Mouse, or,
2. A conversion that was done later.

But it looks so clean that I'm guessing it came this way right out of Kalamazoo.

The finger rest may have been added later, since it doesn't conform to the finger rest seen on the regular production A-5 (picture posted in reply #7 above).

Actually, it looks to be a fairly nice piece, considering the era from which it came. Even the coloration looks to have received extra care at the factory...

[Timbofood]

Maybe, this needs a shout out to Dr. Halsey?
So, I may not be too far off with my "lumpectomy" diagnoses? (Post #6)
Maybe even this blind dog found the bone!
Tom, you can't be that far in the bag! I think we are all suffering from brain freeze!
Just sent a note to Bill Halsey, maybe more light can be shed through one more set of eyes.
My only question is how far off the handwritten note is, calling it a '63, I can see it much more easily at '73. Like I said earlier, when did "Lumpy/Mickey" come into being?

[Steve Cantrell]

Thanks for all the looks, guys. I am certain you are right Tom. I set it up today and changed the 2006 strings. I think I can account for where this mandolin's tone comes from. It does have that block at the neck but it doesn't extend into the scroll. It's hollow. It sounds great. No other way to put it.

[f5loar]

The first lumpy models show up in late 1970. You can see someone wrote over the '73 date with the '63, likely due to someone else looking up the serial no. in the wrong place. You got to first looks at those catalog specs and then go to the right serial no. listings. Gibson did 1000's of same serials in mid to late 60's with the early to mid 70's making really confusion to the average guy looking them up. Other signs are the change in labels. 60's still had the orange labels while the 70's went to the tan/beige labels.

[Paul Hostetter]

Please listen only to Darryl (f5loar). All the rest of the speculation here is really unhelpful.

[f5loar]

Actually Darryl is F5Journal. I am F5Loar but I am good friends with Darryl and I slept at a Holiday Inn last night.