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Thread: Mando Mic Placement

  1. #1
    A celtic storm's a comin'
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    Default Mando Mic Placement

    Hello friends!
    I purchased the Audiotechnica ATM 350 microphone for playing live gigs with my The Loar LM 520. I have been having trouble finding a place for it that sounds great and has zero feedback. I have found a great sounding spot over the F hole but I have experienced many instances of feedback. If I take it away from the F hole, it doesn't feed back as much but it is also very quiet. I have heard very good things about this mic from people amateur to professional and I was just curious if anyone had suggestions on where to place the microphone. Any previous experience or ideas will help.
    Thank you guys!

  2. #2
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando Mic Placement

    Getting feedback under control with a clip-on mic is a two stage process. First, you find a mic placement as close as you can get to maximize gain, without compromising the acoustic tone that's the reason you're using a mic in the first place. Every instrument is a little different, and personal taste on this will vary, but for me the best location has the mic capsule pointed at the bottom of the treble-side F hole. Fairly close, but not actually inside the edge of the F hole.

    Here's what it looks like, with a DPA 4099 mic (actually this looks a bit closer than I usually have it, maybe 1/4" further out):

    Click image for larger version. 

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    You'll have to experiment to find the best balance of tone and gain on your mandolin, but I'd suggest trying this as a starting point on an F style instrument.

    The second stage of feedback control is all about speaker angles and distances, and finally stage volume control. You'll want to position yourself as far away from any nearby speakers as you can, while still hearing monitor speakers if you're using them.

    The ATM350 is a cardioid pattern mic (like my DPA 4099), so it has the strongest feedback rejection directly to the rear of the mic head inside the foam. I'm not sure how clear it is from that photo above, but I have my mic angled up slightly, so the rear of the mic points forward and down towards the floor, where any floor monitor wedges are likely to be. An upwards angle also helps avoid direct reflection of ambient stage sound off the top of the mandolin.

    If you're still having feedback trouble with careful placement of monitor and main speakers, then the next thing to address is stage volume. Is your band just running the monitors too loud? Try to do everything you can to get a reasonable level of stage volume, which will help everyone else using a mic onstage too. Using in-ear monitors will solve most feedback issues also, but that's a high-tech (and expensive) solution, and if you were already using IEM's you wouldn't be asking about feedback issues.

    As a last resort, you can get several db more gain before feedback if you use one of the auto feedback reducer gadgets, which analyze and recognize feedback as soon as it happens, and automatically drop narrowband EQ filters over the signal to help control it. I've used a Sabine FBX2400 for this in the past, when playing in noisier venues like bars. The gigs we play now are more controlled (weddings, mostly) so I haven't bothered to patch it into our system lately. Some of the newer powered speakers are starting to include similar functions, although they're not as full-featured as a standalone unit like the Sabine.

    One of these devices won't totally eliminate feedback if your stage volume is just too high, but they're a big help if you treat them as an emergency backup system for unexpected feedback. For example, the kind the might occur after sound check, as a result of changing room acoustics as people move in and out of the venue, or someone accidentally holding an instrument too close to a floor wedge. If you treat it as a backup, it's a neat gadget. Just don't depend on it as a primary feedback killer. Most people manage to control feedback with clip-on mics without resorting to this, but I'm mentioning it for the sake of completeness.

    I hope this helps, and remember: stage volume is the big thing to get under control. If you get a handle on that, feedback will be much less of a hassle to deal with.

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  4. #3
    A celtic storm's a comin'
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    Default Re: Mando Mic Placement

    Awesome. We have a show on Thursday so I will try some of these tips when preparing for the gig. Thank you!

  5. #4

    Default Re: Mando Mic Placement

    Hi batmandolin. I did some setup work recently with our band, and one of the things we changed was the mic position on my mandolin. Our desk can record and play back through the PA, so I was able to listen to the different setups. I two basic setups, plus some 'tweaks'. Long story short; the best sound on my F5 (by miles) was with the clip on mic fixed just below the tailpiece, and using the gooseneck to point the mic at a 45 degree angle at the treble foot of the bridge, about 1 1/2 inches away. The result was a really natural combination of 'air' sound from the treble side F hole, plus some woody sound from the top, plus just a little 'attack' from the pick. feedback was virtually non-existent, and even my very picky bandmates were impressed with the sound. We have parametric EQ on each channel, but I only used a standard 100 Hz low cut to eliminate handling noise. The EQ was flat apart from that. One other tip; it's worth considering a wireless setup when working with clip-on mics; it's much too easy to knock them of the instrument by stepping on a cable. I clip my wireless sender to the mandolin strap, so I can just take the instrument on and off without worrying about a tangle pulling the mic away. Have a good one on Thursday!
    Tim
    Tim Mundy
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  6. #5
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando Mic Placement

    Stage monitors are a problem, a sensitive Mic Hears the Monitor.

    maybe the House sound-board OP,
    can cut the frequency the mic hears, most, with a narrow band EQ.
    writing about music
    is like dancing,
    about architecture

  7. #6
    A celtic storm's a comin'
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    Default Re: Mando Mic Placement

    Thank you all for your advice. We haven't had any shows recently because of the weather (gotta love wisconsin!). I think I may just have to toy with it in the basement with our PA and try all of the suggestions. I really appreciate the advice!

  8. #7

    Default Re: Mando Mic Placement

    Everything foldedpath said is spot on. I would like to add a little more information. The number of open mics will affect the overall volume before feedback rears its ugly head. For example: you are in a bluegrass band that plays old school style around 1 mic & the system does not feedback until 95dB-SPL. 2 open mics, feedback occurs at 92dB-SPL. 4 open mics, feedback occurs at 89dB-SPL. 8 open mics, feedback occurs at 86dB-SPL. Every time you double the number of open mics, the point feedback occurs will drop by 3dB-SPL. The dB-SPL numbers are just examples. I made them up. If you want to know exact dB-SPL numbers where feedback occurs with the system you are using read up on PAG(potential acoustic gain). Here is a little from Sweetwater. http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/pot...acoustic-gain/

    I have some live sound engineer experience. Last summer I did a bluegrass brunch. Something I was told was to know the coverage patterns of your monitors. Play music through the monitors, walk around them to see wear the music fades off(it's coverage pattern). Move the monitors around so the coverage pattern hits the musician in the ears & not the instrument mic. If they sing, their vocal mic is in the monitors coverage pattern, but use the mics rejection area like foldedpath mentioned. If there are multiple vocalists, I will ask who sings lead, who sings back-up, & who does not sing for each song. Hopefully the band writes a setlist before the show so you can copy it, & write who sings what after each song. If you are not singing for a song, your mic is turned off. Lead singers stay on at unity gain. Backups at 75-80% of unity gain.

    I hope this helps.

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