Help Choosing a CBOM Instrument

[rainineden]

Hello Everyone.

I am entirely new to this family of instruments. We have a Silk Road fusion music project based in Tokyo. We play mostly ethnic instruments from the Middle East, Central Asia and Asia.

Lately we want to expand to Eastern European, Celtic and European folk influences. Especially adding an instrument that can help drive great melody and then turn to hold down some rhythm and chording.

I am used to long neck instruments like long Saz and short Saz so length is not too scary for me. But with more than 3 string courses and chords I know that my reach is also not so wide so I hope for an instrument that is playable.

So here is where we are.

1. Octave Mandolin - We have read it is friendly to play thanks to the shorter scale and less reach required. Nice sound. Can tune to GDGD which can sound very eastern. But does not have the exotic ring that Bouzoukis have.

2. Bouzouki - Longer scale. Have heard bands like Dead Can Dance fit these in nicely with global sounds. But probably harder to chord with for us since none of our members play chord instruments now.

3. Cittern - I have wanted one of these for years, though no idea if I can actually play one. Also worried about having a high tension instrument in a place with such wide temperature and humidity variations as Japan. But the lower course could add a lot of depth to the sound.

For reference, our sound is like Dead Can Dance without the vocals, a little bit of traditional Persian music, some elements of Loreena McKinnitt from her Moorish influence music again with out vocals.

Any help or advice you can give would be great.

Very best,

RainInEden
www.rainineden.com

[Mandobart]

My recommendation would be shorter scale OM (~21"). You can add octave pairs instead of unison to get the 'zouk sound. There are a few entry level models available. Cittern is a specialty deal that will cost you more, but I personally prefer 5 courses over 4.

[tmsweeney]

I agree with Mandobart, if you go for a short to 22 inch scale octave that might be best of both worlds

For more eastern try octave pairs in the lower courses
As you realize the longer the neck the more sustain
however there is compromise in chord and melody structure concerning reach ability
you can compensate with open turnings, but then fingering and chords become very non standard

So with a short to medium scale octave, you probably have the most flexibility.
best of luck

[rainineden]

I have found two or three options. Any feedback on these would be great.

1. Trinity College Octave Mandolin. Seems these get regular decent reviews for their price range.
2. Used Fender Octave Mandolin with pick up installed. This is very affordable for us, so quite tempting. But other than their electric instruments I have no idea if they are good or not.

Any thoughts?

[rainineden]

Forgot one more. K. Yari from Japan. Looks good and we can source it locally. But a bit expensive compared to the Trinity.

[Steve L]

For the kind of music and the background you describe, I would go longer vs shorter on scale length. Most Irish bouzouki players use capos and lots of modal, open string chords and get a zingier (for lack of a better term) sound.

You might want to listen a bit more to people like Donal Lunny (The black album with flute player Matt Malloy is truely great), Michael Holmes in Dervish, Alec Finn playing in the old De Dannan band of backing fiddler Frankie Gavin or whistle player Mary Bergin. Eamon Doorley in Danu and Ciaran Curran from early Altan are great too.

I think a lot of folk who play predominantly American music styles like a fatter, darker sound which is purely a matter of taste. But that tone might not "cut" as well in the styles you've mentioned.

Fender acoustic instruments tend to be quite poor. The aforementioned Donal Lunny now resides in Japan and (I think) plays a Yari. I don't think you can get those in the states, at least I've never seen one nor spoken to anyone who has played one. His use of that brand would be enough to give it serious consideration despite the difference in cost. Trinity College stuff tends to be good for the price, especially used.

[jmp]

I have found two or three options. Any feedback on these would be great.

1. Trinity College Octave Mandolin. Seems these get regular decent reviews for their price range.
2. Used Fender Octave Mandolin with pick up installed. This is very affordable for us, so quite tempting. But other than their electric instruments I have no idea if they are good or not.

Any thoughts?

I've had good results with a Trinity which I bought used years ago. Fenders are not known for their acoustic mandolins, I have read consistently poor reviews for Fender mandolins on this site. I would beware, unless you are talking about a solid body electric mandolin, Fender is excellent for electric instruments.

[allenhopkins]

The Fender octaves have been discontinued, I believe. They were quite similar to the Trinity College OM's, 20-inch scale, flat-top, oval-hole, solid tops at least. They came with piezo pickups. They were only sold for a short time.

K. Yairi is an excellent name; Andy Irvine plays a Yairi bouzouki, I believe. His has a "pin" bridge, like a guitar, rather than the tailpiece and "floating" bridge more common to mandolin-family instruments. Don't find many Yairi instruments listed for comparison.

I'd guess that the Fender and the Trinity College would be somewhat equivalent. The availability of a pickup installed on the Fender might be an important consideration, as would the fact that it's used and perhaps more affordable.

When a person -- or a band -- is experimenting with a new type of instrument, my rule-of-thumb advice is to go affordable first, see if it works, then upgrade if an upgrade seems warranted. Dealing with octave mandolins, bouzoukis and citterns, means that one often doesn't have a huge selection from which to choose. And opportunities to get a really first-class "keeper" instrument may not come along very often. But again, how much one wants to invest in an experiment, is really up to that person.

[rainineden]

Thank you for all the wonderful advice.

We are based in Tokyo, Japan where K. Yari are the only similar instruments around, and even those are a bit rare. I will go see a Bouzouki tonight at a local shop. But this is likely to be the only instrument I will be able to actually touch in Japan.

The pricing on the K.Yari is about $950 USD case included. Compared to the Trinity to import to Japan would come in around $800. and the Fender (now doubting the quality vs. cost on this one given the feedback above) would come in around $600. I also usually go with a cheaper test instrument. But maybe 60-70% of the time when we buy something it ends up in the line up. So maybe the long term cost value would be better buying something better.

About Bouzouki vs. Octave Madolin. Maybe this will also help with narrowing the choice.

I am not so used to chording, on Saz, Setar and Tanbour it is entirely melody and some strumming of open strings. So I am a bit worried about my ability to chord on the Bouzouki if the reach is long. I have played around with guitar and Mandolin a bit but not enough to make a significant difference maybe. Also a bit worried about capos as I have never used one. Are there good resources out there on how to take advantage of them with the Bouzouki? I don't think I will be able to get much instruction locally.

Here are some things we like on this class of instrument to also help give a good idea of how we might use it too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxf5-eaMeCE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmMiPeAW-i8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4f7v...D749F31C0C7E40

And Dead Can Dance who have used both Irish and Greek Bouzouki over the years.

[Eddie Sheehy]

I prefer a Cittern over an Octave Mandolin or Bouzouki. I have two Citterns - a long-scale CcGgDdAAEE cittern - on which I sometimes drop the top EE to DD for bouzouki backup, and a 22" scale GGDDAAEEBB -sometimes dropped to GGDDAAEEAA for backup. I generally play them as teh four bottom-end or four top-end courses and I don't bother much with chording all 5 courses. I use them for backup and melody playing - with and without capos. Vive la difference...

[Tom Haywood]

I enjoy tuning the longer neck bouzouki to an open tuning and using the capo for different key signatures. It is not necessary to play chords and it achieves good ethnic sounds, especially as an accompanying instrument.

[rainineden]

I had a chance to go see and play the K. Yairi tonight. Here are some notes.

1. It was strung with unison strings.
2. The scale is 24.8 inches or 63cm
3. The workmanship looks very nice overall.
4. I guess after Saz and Copuz the neck does not seem that long to me. But then again I was playing only notes not chords.
5. I detuned it to one of the video tunings and it was wonderfully Dead Can Dance or Eastern sounding.

I have to admit I had taken a real liking to the photos of the Trinity College, especially the dark one.
But this K. Yairi is really lovely. Earthy and traditional looking. Warm sound and I could touch it which was great.

I noticed the neck is quite thin compared to the old Hora we had from Romania years ago. But played much better and easier.
But above all the sound was 10,000% different. Not so jangly or mid range-y. Warmer, resonant. Nice.

I kept it on hold for two more days to sweat out a decision. I don't know if not having to ship, being able to play it, and Japanese domestic made really make the value $190 more than importing a Trinity. But kind of thinking it might.

[rainineden]

So one last question. Is it possible to get a Cittern in this same $900-$1000 including shipping price range that is worth having? So far all I could see online was a lot more.

I have dreamed about a Cittern for years, but also worried it would be too much for me to take on with the five courses.
Though I am leaning pretty heavily towards the Bouzouki after today, I am still open to ideas from the masters on this wonderful web site.

[Roland Sturm]

I've owned a Trinity Octave for a while and have played others. They are mediocre instruments, not terrible, but just not much fun to play compared to a quality instrument. I sold it because it quickly collected dust. Fine beater instruments for camping trips or travel so you have something to play with that you don't need to worry about. Not surprising, of course. Trinity octaves are $550 new even from a dealer like Elderly (shipping included) and $300 used, so it is unfair to compare them to a $1000 instrument. But I suspect a very noticeable step down from Yairi. Better than Fender acoustics, though.

[dmcginnis]

It sounds like you really liked the Yairi. If the sound spoke to the music in your head and you could envision hearing that instrument in your band mix, then stop dithering and go buy it. A handmade instrument like that is likely to serve you well for many years.

[Steve L]

I'd get the Yari...I wouldn't even think about it.

[rainineden]

Well.. Thanks to everyone. I did it!!! Picked up the K. Yairi tonight. Tried a couple different tunings and am pretty much in love with it. My wife (also my music partner) loves the sound too. She really hated the twangy quality of the old Romanian Hora we had a few years back. But the K. Yairi has got her wanting to listen and play it too.

Thanks for all your kind help. I hope I can post some music to share in a few weeks.

Cheers,

Kelly

RainInEden Tokyo
www.rainineden.com
www.rainineden.com/cheshmeh

[Holger]

This is the one you need
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1ftqdUlGH0

[jwynia]

I've owned a Trinity Octave for a while and have played others. They are mediocre instruments, not terrible, but just not much fun to play compared to a quality instrument. I sold it because it quickly collected dust. Fine beater instruments for camping trips or travel so you have something to play with that you don't need to worry about. Not surprising, of course. Trinity octaves are $550 new even from a dealer like Elderly (shipping included) and $300 used, so it is unfair to compare them to a $1000 instrument. But I suspect a very noticeable step down from Yairi. Better than Fender acoustics, though.

Agreed. I have an Eastman 514 mandolin and a Weber Gallatin mandocello. I also have a Trinity Octave and it's a big letdown to play the Trinity after playing either of the others. It's definitely slated for replacement once I build back up some cash reserves.

On the plus side, the Trinity did convince me I'd enjoy playing the longer scaled instruments, which led to the Weber mandocello purchase, so it's not all bad.

[jshane]

I also have a Trinity Octave and it's a big letdown to play the Trinity....

Interesting. I have a Trinity, and I absolutely love it. Big booming sound, and sustain into the next county. Aesthetically it is fine, but not superb. I wonder why my experience is different? Maybe Im just weird. 25 years ago I bought a cheap used Yamaha acoustic. I set the neck up properly, worked the frets a bit, and I would put that old beast up against many many expensive guitars. I think sometimes the powers that be conspire such that everything comes together for a particular instrument... maybe THAT explains it.... or, maybe I am tone deaf...