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Thread: a nice zither

  1. #26

    Default Re: a nice zither

    kkmm -

    Good luck with your zither. Here's hoping you can learn to play it. Keep us posted of your progress, we're interested.

    Lee

  2. #27
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: a nice zither

    Looks like this site is the Mandolin Cafe for zitherists. I don't see any contemporary builders list tho.
    Jim

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  3. #28

    Default Re: a nice zither

    I just retired so I will keep myself busy learning this intricate instrument.
    However, I am praying that the one I bought is in "excellent playing condition" as advertized.
    This means: all the tuning mechanism are in good shape (at least the first dozen harmony strings) and the strings stay tuned.
    Once I get it, I will post some infos here such as its exact dimensions and some sound samples, I will just pluck the strings and record how they sound.
    Since the fretboard strings are tuned in 5-th like a mandola (C G D A A), I will be able to play some tunes (without the harmony part) within a few days. Playing both together will require a lot of practice of my part.

  4. #29
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: a nice zither

    I would still loosen the strings and have someone take a look at that back crack before you tune it to pitch. Remember that there something like 32 strings pulling on that structure. Also, at some point you may want to put new strings on it. Who knows how old those are and they may not stay in tune.

    Let us know how it turns out when you get it.
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    Jim

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  5. #30

    Default Re: a nice zither

    Jim,
    thanks for the suggestion about the crack. Definitely I will take a look and as I mentioned earlier, I will see if this is simply a joint separation. If it is I will attempt to fix it myself (I have enough tools, HHG, wood glue to tackle this job). If it turns out to be too difficult for me, I will bring it to a pro.
    Still praying for "excellent playing condition".

  6. #31

    Default Re: a nice zither

    I finally got it. It was delivered to my neighbor's door in the afternoon while I sat at home waiting for it.
    In the evening, my neighbor brought it to me, I only have time to open the box and take a quick look, then had to go for a Xmas music rehearsal !!!

    Today, I examine the whole thing carefully and took some photos.
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    1) The first thing is to look at the crack on the back (as shown in post#29), it is indeed the joint separation, it's perfectly straight and I guess due to the dryness, the wood contract and cause the joint to separate. The gap is about 0.010" max.
    I doubt that I can use HHG to reglue and clamp to close the gap. Imagine the back of a guitar got separated at the center line.
    I am thinking about filling this crack with epoxy to close it, knowing epoxy may not be a good choice.
    *** PLEASE ADVISE me as to how to fix this separation ***

    2) The distance from fret zero to fret#12 is 8"1/8 and fret zero to "saddle" is 16"3/8 (so there are some saddle compensation)
    However, the notes at fret#12 are sharp !!! I can hear it. This is another issue for me to address

    3) I try to play a few tunes such as Silent Night, Tennessee Waltz (only the melody part) and manage to produce the tunes. But fretting is kind of awkward (will get used to this with a lot of practice) and very hard to fret the notes. I notice the strings are kind of heavy strings (instead of medium or light) compared to guitar steel strings. To reduce the tension I change the tuning (from CGDAA to GDAEE) and it is a bit easier to fret the notes.

    4) also noticed the string action at fret#12 is 0.090" (2.25mm or 5.8/64"), on my guitar, the string action at the same distance from the nut is only 0.060" (4/64"). I will use lighter strings to see if the intonation issue at fret#12 goes away or not, if not, I will lower the saddle a bit. I also figure out a way to move the saddle, only if absolutely necessary, a bit farther from the fretboard to get good intonation.

    5) observation: the "nut" which is fret zero is the part that transfer the string vibration to the soundboard, the "saddle+bridge" are at the edges of the instrument and therefore does not contribute much to the sound (I could be wrong about this).

    6) the tuning heads are "rectangular", not square, fortunately the tuning wrench is included in the box. I will make damn sure I NEVER lose it.

    Above are some issues that are manageable. Below are the good things , including potential improvements:
    1) the instrument is in excellent condition (other than the split on the back plate), the finish is pristine on the top and the back. A little touch up work will address some minor scratchs at the sides
    2) the hard case is in good shape, requiring only a few touch up as the (black) paint or stain got scratched. I intend to use the black fabric to cover the entire box with corner pieces (I built two hard cases for two of my keyboards this way), a small project for me to do
    3) the brass handle is in perfect condition, just look antique (and I like that part)
    4) the fabric inside the case is sky blue in color, I plan to replace with red ones (another small project)
    5) steel strings (for acoustic guitar) can be used on the fretboard of this instrument and the ball end with a hole in the center perfectly match the pins on the bridge side. The other 26 strings (12 harmony strings, 12 bass strings and 2 contra-bass strings) appear to be steel string too, however, I will check in the zither forum, before I replace them.

    I am very happy with this instrument (as I only paid 48$ for it, others listed on eBay have numerous defects and cost 200$ to 450$, some without hard cases). My wife is happy too as it looks beautiful and only cost peanuts, another subject she can brag with our friends.

    and last: *** PLEASE ADVISE me as to how to fix the separation on the back ***

  7. #32

    Default Re: a nice zither

    Another strange detail: the instrument has 3 feet at the bottom where they touch the table. And these feet have pointed tip, which is the tip of a nail. This is how it is designed to grip the table during play. In the last photo of previous post, there are 3 round things for the pointed feet to rest on and not poking thru the fabric.
    So I may need to build a special table for it (explained in the zither forum).

  8. #33
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: a nice zither

    Quote Originally Posted by kkmm View Post
    2) The distance from fret zero to fret#12 is 8"1/8 and fret zero to "saddle" is 16"3/8 (so there are some saddle compensation)
    However, the notes at fret#12 are sharp !!! I can hear it. This is another issue for me to address
    My suggestion: before you fiddle with intonation, change the strings, at least on the fretboard part. These strings are prob decades old and prob have lots whatever intonation and tone they would have had.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkmm View Post
    6) the tuning heads are "rectangular", not square, fortunately the tuning wrench is included in the box. I will make damn sure I NEVER lose it.
    I believe that there are tuning wrenches that are star-shaped and might take odd-shaped tuner pins. Then again, best to hold onto the ones that work. Of course, the zither forums might have more accurate info than you can find, certainly from me.

    When I got mine, there was Zapf's Music Store in Philadelphia. AFAIK they are closed but at that time they carried lots of zither items. I got strings and a book. I will try to find the book.
    Jim

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  9. #34

    Default Re: a nice zither

    The strings just got shipped and yes I will wait until I try the new strings.
    Once the instrument proves playable good enough (no slipping pins, no new cracks, etc..) I will buy a set of real zither strings (about 175$ to 200$ a set !!!).

  10. #35

    Default Re: a nice zither

    I found one set of new steel strings and put them on this zither. It does sound better with these new strings, no intonation problem.
    After a few days of practice, I found out that fretting is easier if I press the string close to the fret.
    Yesterday, I spent about 2 hours to enhance the hard case (which is old and has some small cracks, scratches and faded stain). I simply glue the black fabric, the kind used for speakers, portable amps, etc...

    Here are the before / after photo of the case.
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    I know this destroys the antique look of the case, but I want the hard case to look neat.
    (and never has intention to sell this instrument).

  11. #36
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: a nice zither

    Your excitement is contagious. I may have to dig mine out and give it a whirl. I hope it is still playable. I have to also find that book.
    Jim

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  12. #37
    Registered User chip's Avatar
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    Default Re: a nice zither

    I have one in my store right now. Exquisite rosewood front and back.
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  13. #38
    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: a nice zither

    I first met Ken Bloom way back in the mid-late 70's what an interesting time we had! He played at the only place which had anything other mainstream music. Canterbury house was the predecessor to what has become the Kazoo folklife organization. Back then it was run by some very thoughtful talent searchers! The place may have actually seated seventy five (very friendly) patrons. Mike Seeger, Martin, Bogen, and the Armstrongs, Jim Ringer with Mary McCaslin, Utah Phillips, Larry Sparks, Ken Bloom, Sparky Rucker. And the list goes on and on! That place formed the base for my musical interest which still influences my taste. Nothing like that will probably ever be as much fun for me.
    I love how the cafe is "broadening scope" with concert zithers, strong work Scott!
    To address the sharp pointy foot issue, I remember Ken having something like a breadboard since he played it on his "lap"
    Timothy F. Lewis
    "If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett

  14. #39

    Default Re: a nice zither

    To address the sharp pointy foot issue, I remember Ken having something like a breadboard since he played it on his "lap"
    I happen to have a wooden board that I built for a different purpose and it fit perfectly this zither. I can put it on my lap and play.
    Today, I tried to tune the harmony strings and bass strings up to pitch, but many of them have extremely low tension when tuned to pitch, and therefore does not produce good volume & tone.
    And they are so closed together, I have a hard time to pluck the one I want to pluck.

    Can some of you with this type of zithers give me one piece of info: what is the distance from the harmony string#1 to the contra-bass string#1 (ie from string#1 to string#25). Mine is just a bit less than 5.5 inch.
    The melody strings spacing are wider and easier to play (2" from the first string to the fifth).

    The hard part about this instrument is there is no others around to compare like with guitars, mandolins, ukuleles.

  15. #40
    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: a nice zither

    So, the bread board thing was not......an imagined support! I thought I imagined most of the few times I picked with Ken!
    I was so much older then....
    Timothy F. Lewis
    "If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett

  16. #41

    Default Re: a nice zither

    Hey All, I have to toss in this video of Kerry Christensen since we're speaking of the zither. He is one of the finest yodelers in the world but he also plays the accordion, guitar and zither. Here he's discussing the zither and then gives a demo.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIUPmCOXdCY

    Oh, just a warning. If you're interested in any of Kerry's music then go to his site. People will try to rip you off on amazon because he doesn't really sell his music there.
    http://kerrychristensen.com/
    Last edited by marcodamusician; Dec-10-2013 at 3:25pm.

  17. #42
    Registered User Martin Jonas's Avatar
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    Default Re: a nice zither

    All this talk about zithers reminded me that my grandmother used to play one, and I was always fascinated by the elaborate nature of the instrument when she played it at family gatherings. She died when I was in my early teens, so my recollections are rather vague -- I have no associations of the sound or repertoire, just this image of her playing. Her oldest daughter, my aunt, also took up the zither and still plays it to this day, but I've never seen her do it.

    Strings and various accessories (tuning keys, thumb rings etc) can be bought from Schneider Musik in Germany.

    Martin

  18. #43

    Default Re: a nice zither

    That a nice zither playing from Kerry Christensen. I heard he said: "this is one of the most difficult instruments to play".
    After a few days just playing the melody using the fretboard strings, I found it's so damn hard to fret compared to heavy strings on acoustic guitar. Certainly due to my "just a few days of practice". I can play lots of tunes, but they all sound like a novice (which is who I am on this) !!! And the accompaniment sounds quite simple but extremely difficult to carry out while playing the melody. Well, just need hell lot of practice. The second piece he plays would be no big deal on a piano, but on this zither thing is a different animal.
    However, I love it and continue to stick with it.
    The zither forum already warns zither newbees: no matter how good you are on other instruments, you are just a novice when beginning to play the zither (something along this idea).

  19. #44

    Default Re: a nice zither

    kkmm, isn't that true though about any instrument we play? The Mandolin, while not as hard as a zither, isn't a super easy instrument to learn how to play. That's why we practice daily to learn. Kerry, in his early days of yodeling, would practice the zither in between gigs at Disney. Yes, that was one of his first jobs. He would take the three or four hours between sets and practice on his zither. Jimmi Hendrix always traveled with a guitar in his hand. His friends would say he was always playing even when he wasn't. In other words, he was playing the music in his head before he ever touched the strings. I think we all begin to hear music in our heads when our instrument becomes a part of us, right?

    Oh, and I agree. The Zither is an amazing instrument. I think I'll leave this one for you. I love the sound but am satisfied with the guitar, mandolin, banjo, didgeridoo, steel drum and various flutes.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_hKVDtzMGg

  20. #45
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: a nice zither

    Here's a nice sweet sounding tune on what looks like a large modern zither.

    Jim

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  21. #46

    Default Re: a nice zither

    Thanks Jim for this post. It's very inspiring. The player's left hand moves so smoothly, and although the melody tune is not fast, it's really takes a lot of practice to be able to fret like that. On the mandolin or guitar, I have no problem to play a tune like this smootly, no way on the zither yet. The zither is really something totally different.
    There is a detail in the video that I like to ask: what is the slanted line that cross the harmony strings ? Is this just an artifact of video recording or an actual "saddle" or something ?
    BTW: after one week fiddling around with my zither, and compare it against the ones listed on eBay, mine is truly "in excellent playing condition" as advertised, nothing need to be fixed except replacing the strings.
    Think about a 5 year-old mandolin, well kept and, that's what it looks like.
    The split on the back is simply caused by dried glue, not a crack and has no effect on the structure of the instrument/
    I will certainly have a lot of fun and hard work with this one in the next decade.

  22. #47

    Default Re: a nice zither

    Two days ago, I remove all harmony and bass strings (26 in total) and replace them with (cheap) steel guitar strings and also tune it in my way (which is not standard). I spent about 20$ for 8 sets of guitar steel strings.

    The harmony strings + some bass strings are tuned chromatically from G4 down to C3. I will paint some strings to be black (like a black keys on piano) to help me locating the notes.
    Then a few bass strings with the bass notes: B2 A2 G2 F2 (plenty for me to practice).

    This non-standard tuning scheme will certainly limit which keys I can play with but for the next 6 months, playing in C, G, D are plenty of works. So don't beat me up on this deviation from standard (in case you know what the zither standard tuning is)

    There is a few reasons for this:
    1) a new string set cost about 200$, I will spend this amount only if my zither proves to be in really good shape,
    2) I could not find any information on zither strings gauges, and therefore can't place guitar strings at the right slot for standard tuning (with time, I will be able to figure this out, not perfect but close and on the safe side, i.e. lower tension). Once I figure this out, I will go back to standard Munich tuning immediately
    2) guitar strings allow me to test that all the tuning pins hold tune and do not slip (so far so good, no issue here)
    3) allow me to practice playing the harmony part with strings really close to each other (just the harmony part right now)

    The harmony strings sound good on this zither, I will have to practice a lot to be able to play the 3 chord C / F and G cleanly.
    Playing the simple 3 note arpeggio (3/4 time) : C E G E G E C is extremely easy on any instrument but certainly not on this zither due to the tiny gap between strings.

    With real zither strings and standard tuning, it's easier to switch between the 3 main chords (C F G for example), as one only need to shift by one or two string position. much more difficult with my current tuning.

  23. #48
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: a nice zither

    I believe that some folks buy piano wire for zithers and figure out how to make the loops.

    BTW there is another older thread on the Cafe (2006) with some info here.

    Updated German string site Concert Zither page.

    If I ever get a moment, I will dig my zither out. I never did get to learn to play it tho. Right now I am trying to find time for the nyckelharpa.
    Jim

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  24. #49

    Default Re: a nice zither

    Jim,
    thanks for the link to the store that sells zither strings, I bookmarked it.
    I am glad the price is in the 120$-140$ range.
    I just email them to ask for shipping cost to CA, USA.
    The zither learning curve is huge compared to other instruments.
    I made my decision to learn it as I just retired and have time for it.
    (besides continue to play other instruments).
    This morning, I had a chance to see another zither. It appears to be larger in size, the harmony / bass strings gap is larger than mine and therefore should be easier to pluck the strings.

  25. #50
    '`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`' Jacob's Avatar
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    Default Re: a nice zither

    A zither player was featured in the Strauss waltz "Tales from the Vienna Woods" performed by the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra in the 2014 New Year's Day Celebration.

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