Please offer advice on my microphone and amp choices

[SincereCorgi]

Hi all. I want a very easy set-up for my mandolin: I want to play into a microphone on a stand and then have it come out through a mid-size amp with accurate sound and enough volume for a small restaurant-size venue. My initial idea is just to get a SM57 and run it into a Roland AC-60 or AC-90, at which point I would wipe my hands on my pants and call it done. Is there something important that I am overlooking?

Other things on the wish list would be: the ability to run a vocal mic into it, or, much more exotically, a condenser mic that could be split between me and a guitarist. Should I be looking at a PA instead?

[almeriastrings]

If you have the budget, I'd look instead at the Fishman SA-220. Fine sounding system. Portable. Versatile, expandable.

http://www.fishman.com/products/view...ormance-system

Room 'coverage' is considerably better than the AC60/90. Very even and audibility is outstanding, even in difficult rooms. You have the option of using two mics, or mic + pickup/DI. Phantom power available. I have been using these for a couple of years now (I have two of them) and remain very happy with their performance. Not heard anything I like better.

[mandotim1955]

Almeria's recommendation of the Fishman SA-220 would be one of my choices. Again, if you have the budget, the Bose L1 system would work very well. I would avoid the expensive Model 2 versions, and look for a used Classic or Model 1. They sound better to my ears, and are louder. If you use an acoustic amp, you will always be faced with the difficulty of getting the tweeter above the heads of the audience. If you put it on the floor, the high frequencies get lost in a crowded room, so I would recommend biting the bullet and going for a small, lightweight PA such as those suggested.
There are as many mic choices as there are fleas on a dog; I think the SM57 is a good workhorse, but there are lots of better options nowadays. For vocals, I would recommend the AKG D5 or Audix OM5, both are modern and very effective designs; they both reject feedback very well and sound great. Three ideas for instruments; you can get a pair of AKG Perception 170 small diaphragm condenser mics for not much money at all, and these are really good for live instrument miking. If you want to go down the dynamic mic route, I've been having good results with the Audix i5, and with the Shure Beta57A. The other idea; get an Audio-Technica AT4033 large diaphragm condenser, and do the bluegrass single-mic thing, playing and singing into the same mic. In a small restaurant venue this should work very well. You and the guitarist will need to practise the bluegrass dance steps if you want to take solos though!

[Tim2723]

Your basic premise is sound, but like the others I would go for something a bit more than just a small acoustic amplifier. For $200 more than the AC90 you could have either the Fishman Solo Amp or the Bose compact model. Both are $1000 an remain as portable as the Roland. For Bose I would stick with the small Compact and pass up the larger systems. Of those two the Solo Amp will give you greater connectivity out of the box for use by two players. If your heart is set on an AC90, then get it up on a stand. Any of those can be enhanced with a simple passive mixer to add channels, phantom power, whatever you need in the future.

You could also go for a small 'suitcase' PA like the Fender Passport, Yamaha, Stage Pass, etc. They are a little more to carry and set up though. They aren't as much of a 'wipe your hands on your pants' solution.

An SM57 is a workhorse mic that everyone should have in their kit no matter what else you own in the future, so that's a perfectly good place to start.

[foldedpath]

Just agreeing with the other advice here; I'd go with the Fishman SA220 if your budget can stretch that far. It's a nice setup for coffee house and restaurant gigs, and has enough oomph to handle a few other situations like smaller club gigs or outdoor farmer markets at "acoustic instrument" levels. The built-in mixer would be good for adding a vocal mic or another instrumentalist. The vertical design on a stand will give you much better area coverage than an acoustic amp sitting on the floor, or on a chair.

Personally, I prefer a compact modular PA for even the smallest gigs, like an Allen & Heath Zed 10FX 4-channel mixer and a single QXC K10 speaker on a stand. I like having the mixer next to me for quick adjustments, which is one slight drawback of the SA220 and similar setups -- you have to walk over to your speaker to make adjustments. But that's not a serious drawback, and the SA220 is less expensive than going modular with separate PA components. An all-in-one design is a little faster to set up and tear down compared to PA separates too, which is a consideration for some folks.

The time to think about a more full-featured PA system is when you need more inputs for a band, or need to cover a wider area with more speakers. For a solo coffee house act with the occasional guest player, something like the SA220 is fine.

The SM57 is a good starter mic. They don't cost much, the performance is solid and predictable, and it lacks only the upper "air" frequency details that a good condenser mic will pick up. You may eventually want a better mic, but like Tim2723 said, it's the kind of tool that you should always have handy as a backup, even if you get a better mic later on. I use nice condenser mics on gigs (KM184's for external mics, DPA 4099 clip-ons for instruments), but I always have a few old SM57's tucked away in the bottom of the gear bag. Very handy if a primary mic goes down, or I suddenly have to support more guest players. Note: the SM57 is one of the more heavily counterfeited mics out there, so make sure you're buying a genuine Shure model from a reputable dealer like Sweetwater, MF, etc. Don't buy it on Ebay.

Get a good quality mic stand like a K&M model with a short boom. Don't get a cheap mic stand, they aren't worth it and will bite you sooner or later.

Good luck with the project, and let us know how it turns out!

[SincereCorgi]

Thanks guys, I couldn't have asked for more thoughtful or useful replies. When this many people suggest stretching for the SA-220, it's probably worth the stretch. I'd pull the trigger today, except I want to talk to some other people about cartage and whether a PA is a more sensible option. I will definitely post the exciting conclusion...

[almeriastrings]

To clarify.. the SA220 is a PA. A very compact one based on line array concepts. You can easily add extra inputs via an external mixer. The ones provided may be adequate for solo acts, however. If you need more - just connect a mixer.

[SincereCorgi]

To clarify.. the SA220 is a PA...

Thank-you, that's a useful clarification... I don't really know from mixers so that hadn't occurred to me.

[allenhopkins]

Another vote for the Fishman SA 220 SoloAmp. I've had mine for five years now, and have used it for small-room gigs, and for outdoor performances at farmers' markets and such. I've covered a gym/auditorium with 400 K-8th grade kids using it.

If you "expand" and find its two channels insufficient, a small mixer plugged into its Aux input will give you additional capacity. And its designed to be positioned behind the performer, which can make monitors unnecessary. Obviously, there are limits to this positioning in terms of volume, to avoid feedback, but you can get pretty loud, tweaking its anti-feedback controls to allow the coverage you want.

[almeriastrings]

Because the SA-220 has particularly wide dispersion (good audibility over a very wide 'beam') you can usually position them to the side, and just a little bit forward, and still have more than enough audibility to monitor easily without additional 'wedges'. This also happens to be just about the best possible position to take full advantage of a hypercardiod (vs. regular cardiod) microphone. These have maximum null (rejection) in the 110-120 degree off-axis area:



Two microphones that I've found work especially well with this system are the AKG D5, which is a fine sounding, well made dynamic microphone that is available for just under $100 (a considerable bargain in my opinion), and the Audix VX-5 condenser (this is quite a bit more expensive, around $250). The AKG D5 is quite versatile and can be used on instruments, not just vocals. The Audix i5 (dynamic) is also very good, with nice side-rejection, but it has a bit of a LF proximity 'bump' in the 150Hz range, so used close to an acoustic instrument, may require a bit more fiddling with EQ. The D5 is quite a bit 'flatter' in that respect. All of these work well with the SA220 (and Bose) systems, though, even in quite tricky and difficult rooms.

[Tim2723]

You asked for more about cartage. The Fishman comes with a sturdy wheeled case that holds the PA, it's folding tripod support stand, and has room for cables and the mic. It's one of those drag-behind deals like a portable suitcase. The Bose Compact is even more portable. Though it doesn't have wheels it's too light to need them and has protective covers with pockets for all the 'stuff'. It is carried in one hand and takes up less space in the car than the average baby seat. The Solo Amp is noticeably larger. The Bose has the further advantage of three set up positions. You can use it fully extended as a stand up system, fully compacted as a tabletop unit (like an acoustic amp) or half extended for times when there's not enough ceiling space above it. The Solo Amp is somewhat less versatile in that respect although its height is adjustable. With either system though you won't go wrong for your needs.

Is a PA a more sensible option? I think we'd need a lot more info on your future plans to answer that. The right PA system can be more expandable, so that's a possible plus. But for small venue use at moderate volumes, a small PA really has few advantages over a Fishman or Bose with a small mixer attached. Like AS mentioned, these things are PA systems. It's just that these 'tower' designs represent the next evolutionary step in small venue sound reinforcement.

Sometimes it comes down to how many trips it takes to the car. The towers beat even small PAs that way. With my Bose Compact I can be half way home while the guy with the PA is still winding wires.

And please don't think anyone here is trying to sell you a tower. The last guy to write in asking about them ended up with a traditional large PA because that was right for him.

[foldedpath]

The right PA system can be more expandable, so that's a possible plus. But for small venue use at moderate volumes, a small PA really has few advantages over a Fishman or Bose with a small mixer attached. Like AS mentioned, these things are PA systems. It's just that these 'tower' designs represent the next evolutionary step in small venue sound reinforcement.

Maybe it's just me being pedantic and grumpy before I've had enough coffee this morning, but I wouldn't call the Fishman or Bose towers a "PA system." To me, that implies the more modular, conventional setup. Maybe compact all-in-one PA is a better term? It's clearly more than just an "acoustic amp" but it's somewhere shy of what I'd call a PA system. Maybe it's just me... <need more coffee!>.

Anyway, whatever we call them, we're seeing more hybrids like this in the marketplace as a result of powered speaker manufacturers adding some built-in mixer capability. They range from the limited 2-channel, no-EQ mixer in my QSC K10's, to 3-input mixers in the new Yamaha line, and all the way to what looks like a pretty decent 2-channel mixer with full EQ in the Line 6 L2t.

That Line 6 speaker even includes a sweep mid EQ, FX, and auto feedback suppression. I don't know what the long-term reliability is, since it's fairly new on the market, but it prices out about the same as the Fishman and Bose compact towers, with the addition of a speaker stand. It's a bit heavy though, at 39 lbs. for the lift onto a stand. I think the Fishman is around 25 lbs. without the stand. My QSC K10 powered speakers run 32 lbs., and at my age that's about the most I want to lift on a stand, or pack in the car.

[mandroid]

One of the small-med diaphragm onboard battery powered condenser
like AKG and Rode makes
will let you use amps that have marginal or no Phantom power .


I have a Roland AC-60 , they ship them with a padded gig bag
to shoulder carry on it's strap.

It has a Phantom power option on 1 channel of 2.

there is a post pre_ power amp input to add a small mixer in addition.

PA? all depends on how many things you want to haul in..
& break down and haul back out.

[Tim2723]

Yes FP, you're being pedantic and grumpy and since AS said it first, it's just you.

[foldedpath]

Yes FP, you're being pedantic and grumpy and since AS said it first, it's just you.

Drat! First poster privilege scores again!

And my PA still sounds better. Nyah, Nyah!

[jefflester]

And please don't think anyone here is trying to sell you a tower.

A bridge on the other hand....

[almeriastrings]

Or both simultaneously...

[Tim2723]

I think we should point out that your original thought of a mic plugged into an AC90 is not a bad idea at all. The whole concept of a small, self-contained amp with a microphone has always been popular since acoustic amps came out years ago. It's just that it was such a popular and useful idea that manufacturers have taken the next steps and come up with even better solutions. Lighter, more powerful, easier to carry, better sound dispersion from a single point, all that. There are tons of AC90s out there chugging along, but the new systems make them somewhat...obsolete.

Sometimes I think we have too many choices today.

[mandolirius]

I'd stay away from the Bose sytems entirely. If you want a box of mud, grab a shovel and head down to the nearest swamp.

[mandroid]

hey, at 66 I'm obsolete too.

[stringmanca]

We had a Roland AC60, which sounded great but wasn't quite powerful enough. Recently got a couple of Fishman Loudbox Performers (180W), which are full of power and sound amazing. A bit heavy, at around 40+ lbs, but not too bad. There are smaller versions available (Mini and Artist). I've got a K&K Mandolin Twin pickup in my Howard Morris F4, so haven't tried micing it yet, though.