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Thread: Ideas to help build good timing, not just speed.

  1. #1
    Mandolinist out of Atl
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    Default Ideas to help build good timing, not just speed.

    I am curious if anyone has tricks, be it with a metronome or just counting. Ways to make my playing swing, with syncopation, letting my leads breathe. I know less is more and silence is golden. Now I just need ways to teach my fingers that.

    Thanks

  2. #2

    Default Re: Ideas to help build good timing, not just speed.

    The metronome. Once you internalize the time, the rest will fall into place.

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  4. #3
    Mandolinist out of Atl
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    Default Comping without the chop, and lead phrasing ideas?

    I am curious if anyone has any tricks or advice for phrasing, or syncopation. Drums being my first instrument, as well as playing in a band featuring percussion, Kahone, and stand-up bass, I have found I'm searching for the space for my mandolin.

    With a solid rhythm section and drums established, the "chop," chords can sound cluttered and redundant, even when locked in air tight.

    For comping, Any ideas for favorite chord shapes that utilize using open strings? Omitting the tonic in the chord is okay with me? Maybe I can sustain and get away from my chop?

    As for lead playing, any tricks of the trade for really commanding the playing of triplets? Ie. ways to count them aloud while practicing?

    Also, any advice, and/or routines that can help keep my 8th notes swinging? I am looking to get away from the always "driving bluegrass sound." My goal is for my lead playing to feel more like a jazz horn, and less like the bluegrass banjo . The ladder sound I often can get..that is when cross-picking at break-neck speeds too close to the mic.

    Any advice, input, and stories are much appreciated! I have dusted off my trusty metronome, and attempted a few things already. Including using much more downstrokes, in an attempt to copy the powerful gypsy jazz guitar sound. It seems to work for me?

    I am interested in anything that can facilitate my playing to move forward into more rhythmically interesting places.

    Thanks

  5. #4
    Registered User SincereCorgi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ideas to help build good timing, not just speed.

    As far as 'tricks' go, the top-level classical players I've studied with have said that when they play fast music they are constantly subidividing in their heads, by which I mean every quarter note is thought of as four sixteenths, the idea being that if you're acutely aware of the small note timings the longer note timings will take care of themselves. This is one of those things that's actually pretty simple, the difficulty is in always actually bothering to do it.

    Another thing to work on might be rubato, by which I mean messing around within a strict tempo. The idea is that if you steal time from one note, you've got to pay it back somewhere else in the phrase, and doing this tastefully is a big part of what makes a solo sound good or maudlin or amateurish.

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  7. #5

    Default Re: Ideas to help build good timing, not just speed.

    Great Question, and, frankly, one I think that will challenge us forever-- it goes to the heart of phrasing and musicality.

    For what it is worth:

    1. Use a metronome (no one is as good with time as they think they are)

    2. SincereCorgi is right on, and not just in divisions to 16th notes, but sub-divisions in general (1, 2, 1-and, 2-and, trip-el-et, trip-el-et, 1-a-and-a, 2-a-and-a)

    3. Use a metronome

    4. Sing it the way you want to hear it-- then PLAY it that way (that is where rubato originates)

    5. Use a metronome

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    Registered User Pasha Alden's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ideas to help build good timing, not just speed.

    Hi there Jake

    My method may be rather amateurish,That is to say if "amateurish is a word" <smile>
    but I have by way of working on my tremolo and the right hand and alternate picking tried to play with the metronome, concentrating especially on the down stroke, and somehow I find along with following the metronome it makes my playing more controlled and makes me concentrate more on rhythm. It seems to focus my timing more? If that makes sense.

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  10. #7
    Mandolinist out of Atl
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    Default Re: Ideas to help build good timing, not just speed.

    This is helpful! Thanks. I am not near as good with the metronome as I thought. I have an old Sabine Zipbeat, and it is fun and challenging to set it the accented beat on the 3, 5 or 6. It automatically makes my sense of timing change, be it for better or worse.

  11. #8

    Default Re: Ideas to help build good timing, not just speed.

    Listen really hard to the inflection and swing that Grisman, Gaudreau, Sam Bush and the like get into their breaks. Copy their breaks as slavishly as you can, and really try to match their rhythms. Play it back and listen for the differences. If you can really get inside the rhythms these guys use, you'll start to be able to do it yourself eventually. I'm not saying it happens fast, but it's a lot more fun than all the metronome work.

    But, you know, work the metronome too.

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    Registered User Pete Martin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ideas to help build good timing, not just speed.

    For improved timing, work with the metronome SLOW and I mean VERY SLOW. Don't be satisfied until you can play right with it ultra slow.

    Also practice playing ahead of the beat, right on the beat, and behind the beat. This will help your musical feel immensely.
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    Default Re: Ideas to help build good timing, not just speed.

    On any instrument, the very best soloists literally "sing" thru their instrument. Listen to a really good vocalist sing a melody. They never sing each note right on a beat. They anticipate beats, they delay beats.That's what makes a melody breathe. Try playing the melody along with a good singer, also try singing a melody yourself, then try to emulate what you're singing in your playing.
    Music speaks to us all. And to each of us, she speaks with a different voice.

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  16. #11

    Default Re: Ideas to help build good timing, not just speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Martin View Post
    For improved timing, work with the metronome SLOW and I mean VERY SLOW.

    It is amazing how playing at a painfully slow speed accentuates rhythmic error. I had this proven to me this way:

    Take any reasonably fast recorded mandolin solo that you are impressed by. Now, using Audacity or a similar package, slow the recording down by half. I predict you will be astounded at how poorly the artist sticks to precise meter (Sam Bush possibly excepted). Speed hides imprecision...

    I think Pete's advice is right on the money-- I'm going do go dial my metronome down right now.

  17. #12

    Default Re: Ideas to help build good timing, not just speed.

    I found this book helpful - http://www.amazon.com/Sight-Read-Rhy.../dp/1575605155 . The basic idea is that you memorize all possible combinations of sounds that can occur within one beat and always count beats. With a metronome or drum/click track.

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    Default Re: Ideas to help build good timing, not just speed.

    Band in the Box

  19. #14

    Default Re: Ideas to help build good timing, not just speed.

    I agree with everything that's been proffered about metronomes, and want to add that a great way to see how your playing actually fits with music is to play along to CDs. Trying to learn blues? BB and Freddie King would love to help. Want to play rhythms in 5 or 7? Soundgarden and Sting are waiting to jam. Being able to fit in with the feel of the music, the drummers syncopation, the guitar and bass parts, it all helps incredibly. When that metronome click gets too boring, break out the albums.

  20. #15

    Default Re: Ideas to help build good timing, not just speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Martin View Post
    For improved timing, work with the metronome SLOW and I mean VERY SLOW. Don't be satisfied until you can play right with it ultra slow.

    Also practice playing ahead of the beat, right on the beat, and behind the beat. This will help your musical feel immensely.
    ^this. i especially love the second half of the quote...

    "Also practice playing ahead of the beat, right on the beat, and behind the beat."

    Yes.

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