Tone Gard clothing marks

[SincereCorgi]

This may have been discussed somewhat before, but I thought there might be new thoughts on it...

I love my Tone-Gard, but it still leaves marks where I contact the main black rubber pieces on the side prongs. I have a gig coming up where I'm wearing my fancy new light suit and I don't relish the idea of dry-cleaning the black marks off it- has anybody used surgical tubing or saran wrap or something to address this issue?

[mrmando]

This is why I always play naked.

[sblock]

This may have been discussed somewhat before, but I thought there might be new thoughts on it...

I love my Tone-Gard, but it still leaves marks where I contact the main black rubber pieces on the side prongs. I have a gig coming up where I'm wearing my fancy new light suit and I don't relish the idea of dry-cleaning the black marks off it- has anybody used surgical tubing or saran wrap or something to address this issue?

The new Tone Gards come equipped with clear silicone tubing instead of black "rubber" (synthetic rubber, or EPDM). This new tunbing will not mark your clothing, nor -- importantly -- will it mark your mandolin, either, even if it has a varnish finish. The silicone tubing used is Tygon #3350, 1/8" ID, 1/16" wall thickness, which is available commercially if you just want to buy a few feet and try it for yourself. You might also be able to get some directly from Tony Pires, if you contact him at his website (I cannot say for sure.) I hope this is helpful.

[yankees1]

When I had a Tone Gard I wrapped/super glued each prong ,that made contact with the mandolin , with micro fiber which left no marks.

[SincereCorgi]

That sounds pretty good Sblock- where do you buy silicon tubing though? Medical supply store? Home brewing kit?

[Tobin]

The new Tone Gards come equipped with clear silicone tubing instead of black "rubber" (synthetic rubber, or EPDM). This new tunbing will not mark your clothing, nor -- importantly -- will it mark your mandolin, either, even if it has a varnish finish.

I hate to be a bubble burster, but my ToneGard has the clear tubing on it, and it has already melted its way through the finish at the contact points on my Ellis. So it's still reactive and will leave a mark. Even the Tone Gard website FAQ admits that it will mar an instrument with a French polish. But it doesn't leave black marks on my shirt.

[Mike Bunting]

Call Tonegard (or Tony P here on the cafe). They just sent me the new clear thingies as we'll a new set of pads. Very accommodating people.

[Gplayer]

Why in the world would they use a material that damages the finish?

[Mike Bunting]

Why in the world would they use a material that damages the finish?

I've had a T-G on a lacquer finish and on a varnished finish for the last 10 years with no ill effects.

[sblock]

I hate to be a bubble burster, but my Tone-Gard has the clear tubing on it, and it has already melted its way through the finish at the contact points on my Ellis. So it's still reactive and will leave a mark. Even the Tone-Gard website FAQ admits that it will mar an instrument with a French polish. But it doesn't leave black marks on my shirt.

One needs to be a bit careful here. "Melted its way" is probably not entirely accurate, although I certainly don't doubt that something happened. The pads on the Tone-Gard apply substantial mechanical pressure, and so a 'softer' finish may move or re-distribute itself in response to that pressure. What you saw on your Ellis may not have been a chemical reaction, per se, but either a mechanical abrasion or a response to pressure. Speaking for myself, I have tried the silicone tubing with a Tone-Gard on a 2011 Northfield NF-5M with spirit varnish finish, and also on a 2009 Altman (also a varnish finish), with no adverse effects whatever. The material from which the silicone tubing is made is chemically quite unreactive, and this particular kind of tubing (which is medical grade) is cured over a platinum catalyst, rather than using a chemical catalyst that can leave trace amounts of unreacted chemicals inside the rubber. It seems highly unlikely to me that platinum-cured, medical-grade silicone rubber would "melt," that is, chemically react, with any varnish, nitrocellulose, or polymerized instrument finish. But it might well produce a small indentation mechanically, which may well be what you're seeing. One could try bending the prongs on the Tone-Gard a bit beforehand to relieve some of the downbearing force to minimize the possibility of this, of course, but in your case, alas, that may be too late.

Tony Pires is quite wise not to guarantee to his clients that something placed in constant contact with a delicate mandolin finish won't ever mark it! And he warns Tone-Gard users explicitly about such a possibility. On the other hand, the newer silicone tubing he's using is vastly less reactive, chemically speaking, than the older black rubber tubing, and on at least SOME varnished mandolins, it hasn't left any marks whatsoever. Furthermore, many older varnish finishes, which tend to be harder and have had more time to set up, seem to fare better, and even some signed Lloyd Loar F5's have been equipped with Tone-Gards (think John Reischman, David Grisman, and Ricky Skaggs, to name a few) that didn't mark them.

Someone else asked about where to buy Tygon 3350 tubing (1/8" ID, 1/16" wall thickness) commercially. I have no financial interest here. You can buy this tubing online from many distributors -- but it is all made by Saint-Gobain. Just try searching for "3350 Tygon." But usually, the distributors tend to sell larger rolls of it, typically 50 or even 100 feet. But U.S. Plastic Corp will sell you as little as 10 feet at at time (their part #57292), at $1.85 per foot (see http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/ite...g&gclsrc=aw.ds

Or, as I mentioned, Tony Pires might be willing to sell you or send you a small sample. He's a very honorable businessman, and a good friend of mandolin players everywhere.

[nickster60]

I also like the playing naked idea. My wife thinks I should change instruments, say the mandolin doesn't cover up enough. She says I should try the Stand Up Bass.

[Leon Peoples]

Tobin I think I would call T Ellis about it, sounds like the varnish on yours wasn't completely cured, Tom is a good guy maybe he will touch it up for you.
best/joe

PS If you need his number back channel me.

[yankees1]

As I mentioned above, if you would take micro-fiber strips and hot glue around the parts that make contact with the mandolin, you won't have any problem with marks on the wood. I used my Tone Gard for over a year and I had NO marks on my mandolin.

[mandobassman]

I'm having difficulty understanding how the pads contact your clothing. Those pads contact the mandolin on the side of the instrument and only the back frame of the Tone Gard contacts your clothing. I have had a Tone Gard for the past five years and have never had any marks on my clothing. Mine has the older black pads and also have never had any marks on my mandolin.

[SincereCorgi]

I'm having difficulty understanding how the pads contact your clothing.

I guess I might crouch more when I play than you do... I usually get marks on the upper left pantleg and occasionally on the front of my shirt if I curl over it. It really depends on the fabric and temperature and stuff. But... problem solved; Tony actually saw this thread and contacted me about some tubing, because the guy's clearly a total class act.

[Ivan Kelsall]

If i was having trouble with the stype of tubing that you guys are having,i'd try to find some 'natural' rubber tubing.As it's a natural product,it doesn't have the reactive chemicals in it that 'synthetic' rubbers have & is usually very inert.As a temporary measure,i'd cover the existing stuff with masking tape until you can remove it.It might not look too great,but it won't damage your mandolin or leave clothing marks,
http://www.thomasnet.com/products/na...3610754-1.html - Ivan

[Tobin]

One needs to be a bit careful here. "Melted its way" is probably not entirely accurate, although I certainly don't doubt that something happened. The pads on the Tone-Gard apply substantial mechanical pressure, and so a 'softer' finish may move or re-distribute itself in response to that pressure. What you saw on your Ellis may not have been a chemical reaction, per se, but either a mechanical abrasion or a response to pressure. Speaking for myself, I have tried the silicone tubing with a Tone-Gard on a 2011 Northfield NF-5M with spirit varnish finish, and also on a 2009 Altman (also a varnish finish), with no adverse effects whatever. The material from which the silicone tubing is made is chemically quite unreactive, and this particular kind of tubing (which is medical grade) is cured over a platinum catalyst, rather than using a chemical catalyst that can leave trace amounts of unreacted chemicals inside the rubber. It seems highly unlikely to me that platinum-cured, medical-grade silicone rubber would "melt," that is, chemically react, with any varnish, nitrocellulose, or polymerized instrument finish. But it might well produce a small indentation mechanically, which may well be what you're seeing. One could try bending the prongs on the Tone-Gard a bit beforehand to relieve some of the downbearing force to minimize the possibility of this, of course, but in your case, alas, that may be too late.

I would really like to think it's just mechanical pressure causing it. But it was on there less than 24 hours before I noticed a complete "melt through" of the finish under the pads (and while it was resting in its case, not even being played or handled). And the reason I describe it as "melting" is because it's obvious that it's not just some sort of abrasive action or pressure causing it. The finish behind the pad, as well as just immediately around it (maybe 1mm around the actual contact points), is completely gone. Like it was evaporated away. It didn't just cause an indentation in the finish, where one might expect ridges or humps on either side. It's just ...gone.

I also have one of Doug Edwards' McClung armrests clamped to my Ellis. It uses cork on the clamp side contact point and leather on the armrest side contact point. This is clamped much more firmly than the ToneGard, yet it doesn't show any signs of wear or damage to the finish. So it seems obvious to me that pure compressive force on the finish is not what's causing the issues with the ToneGard pads. If it were, I'd see similar issues with the armrest. It has to be some sort of chemical off-gassing reaction from the tubing, despite all claims to the contrary. I can't find any other rational explanation.

Tobin I think I would call T Ellis about it, sounds like the varnish on yours wasn't completely cured, Tom is a good guy maybe he will touch it up for you.
best/joe

PS If you need his number back channel me.

It is very likely that an incomplete cure is part of this. Tom states quite clearly on his website that the finish will be soft for the first 6 months or so, and mine was only finished in August. But I still find it odd that my armrest hasn't caused any issues while the ToneGard has. Soft finish or not, there must be some chemical issue involved.

Anyway, I'm sure Tom could have it touched up for me (although this would likely not be covered under his warranty since it's caused by an aftermarket add-on). But it doesn't upset me enough to go to that length. I'm keeping the ToneGard on there because it's a GREAT product that enhances performance, and the finish issue will stay pretty much hidden. I intend to keep this mandolin for life, so I'm not worried about resale value or keeping it in pristine showroom condition. It's my main player, and sees several hours of action every day.

In the long run, the finish marring under the ToneGard arms will be a minor affair. I only brought it up to remind others that even with this surgical tubing, there may be finish issues on a varnished mandolin (and the ToneGard FAQ admits this as well, so it's clearly disclosed by Tony). Folks just need to make the choice between the performance value of a ToneGard and the risk of minor finish blemishes. For me, the blemishes are well worth the performance I get from the ToneGard.

[Timbofood]

Can you make leather covers for these contact points? Or take it off when you use the light suit.

[TonyP]

Thanks Tobin for your clear thinking and level head.

I try my very best to do what it right by my customers. I've been told that it's not a good idea to give as much info as possible as it confuses the end user, but I don't buy it. The Tone-Gard is not magic, it's not a force field. Anything that touches the mandolin(including the player) is going have some impact. I try to produce the best product I can and one of the last tweeks was the spring arm material.

I would be very interested to see what's going on with your mandolin as this new hose has been in the field now for going on it's second year and there has been few complaints. Far fewer that like the original complaint of marking clothes. I've upgraded everybody I've come in contact with and all the pro's have been happy that I know of. I wonder if the sides of your Ellis have more varnish than the top and back? There are as many formulas for finish as there are makers so it's almost impossible to know what's going on. And even the top makers get a weird batch of varnish. One guy got his new top tier mandolin and went to a jam and after getting done got ready to put it back in the case and there was a perfect imprint of his shirt on the back. He got a Gard because it did less damage than he did to the finish. I think he ended up sending the mandolin back to be refinished.

The first complaint I heard was from a hi time Gardist that thought I'd "cheaped out" and went to some plastic hose. When I told him that this new hose won't leave marks, won't oxidize and fall apart over time, and is 9x's more expensive than the old hose...he decided he's ok with it being more "visible" than the old black hose.

Sblock is not some guy giving his opinion. Dr. Block is a full on chemistry professor at a major university. He contacted me that he'd decided to run an experiment on his brand new varnished Northfield using Tygon 3350 instead of the old rubber hose. We communicated back and forth and as you can see by his post, this guy has the chops. He was able to decipher the MSDS sheet on the hose I'd been using and made the case to me the Tygon would be an upgrade worth the expense. After 3mo on his mandolin he sent me pix, and I went and bought a 10' piece to test on my personal Gards. I was sold and made the changeover.

As to the old hose, I used it for almost 20yrs and never had a mark on my clothes, until one day at a festival it was 106 and we played a long set. Sweat and cloth + rubber = marks. I noticed most of the guys that were having the probs were in the South. You could keep it kind of under control by using instrument wax or 303 on the rubber. That would reseal it. But you never have to do that with the Tygon. But like Dr. Block and I discussed, you can't know all the problems that can arise. You can only hope to not generate more.

Ivan I agree with trying to find something that is natural. That's what I thought I was doing. Plastic hose will eat right through epoxy. Surgical rubber will too. It's throw away, they use it once and toss it. And when it dies it not only eats the finish, it leaves a horrible mess. The vacuum hose I was using was the best but like Dr. Block pointed out, it was EDM. Tough stuff, made to last under a hot hood around an engine. Even then I had one pro his body chemistry would cause it to crack and fall off in weeks! Hot glue may work for some, but talk about a outrageous mess, and it's doesn't stick to powdercoat. And then using it to glue micro fiber.....to each his own. But to my way of thinking, micro fiber is a magnet to dirt and dust and would just get messy in no time. I have to think about how to assemble as quick and easy as possible(I'm just one guy, not a huge company) and as easy to maintain as possible in the field.

Time will tell, but I feel like once again a Gardist has helped improve the product through direct use and feedback.

[mandroid]

I recall, lemony Pledge treatments were recommended..

[Timmando]

Here in florida the new tubing on my tonegard is working fine on my mando. No imprints or melting of the finish. And down here a rubber band left outside will last about 4 weeks before it just about turns to dust. I had some black rubber gloves, brand new, hanging in the package out in the garage for about 6 months before I had the need to use them..they just broke apart into pieces when I tried to put my hand into one. The black rubber on my guitar stand has turned into a sticky goo that I have to wrap in saran wrap so I can adjust the neck of the stand. Must be the heat or the sun, but the rubber on my tonegard is fine.

[Jim Gallaher]

Just a heads-up that 10' of tubing at $1.85/ft is $18.50, but UPS Ground shipping is $15.53. No USPS available for this product from the referenced supplier.

[Steve Ostrander]

Shoulda bought a dark suit....it's after Labor Day....

[woodwizard]

I've been using mine for about 7 years and have not ever noticed any marks on my shirts or pants. ?

[Jim Gallaher]

I have definitely ruined at least two light-colored shirts with it due to sweating heavily during outdoor summer gigs. The black marks didn't come out.

I still use mine, but I wear black shirts exclusively when I play outdoors.