Looking to buy nice mandolin. Why so expensive?

[G7MOF]

Quality, costs!

[houseworker]

...for not much more an what they charge for some of these top of the line pac-rimmers. For four hundred bucks more or so you could have a kick hiney mandolin way better than any of these asian ones...even the best asian ones...just my opinion

If this post of yours from four weeks ago is anything to go by, you're just about the least qualified person on the forum to pass judgement on Asian mandolins, let alone "the best asian ones" (sic).

[almeriastrings]

That certainly puts it in context...

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

If this post of yours from four weeks ago is anything to go by, you're just about the least qualified person on the forum to pass judgement on Asian mandolins, let alone "the best asian ones" (sic).

The truth is...thats just it. in the past the asian mandolins in the past that I had played were not very good at all. However, since then their have been a bunch of new asian makers like Eastmen, The Loars, Michael Kelley, and now JBovier and prob some more I havent checked out yet. Have I played any of these before? No, I'm hoping that I would be pleasantly surprised if I ever get the chance to test drive any of them. I havent played a mandolin in quite a few years, but my past experiences have told me to stear clear of asian mandolins, I just never played one that I didnt like. the jurys still out for me on a 2nd mandolin when I get to that point, should I have another cuatom one built for maybe 4,5 or 600 dollars more, or take the leap, maybe these later asian mandolins are better. Its just hard to take someone opinion on it...I guess I will just have to play some for myself when I visit the US and my mom for Thanksgiving this year. Is there anywhere in the Orlando Fl whee I can see, examine and play one of these? I meant no offense, but there is still a part of me thats saying its better to just pay a bit more and get a luthier built one. Thats the great part of the mandocafe, one came come here and do alot of research which is really beneficial for a guy like me who lives in Argentina. I'm sorry I'm so skeptical, but I just for some reason have a hard time thinking ( in my peronal opinion) that these mandolins are really as good as I am reading alot of folks are saying they are. I'll have to try them out for myself I guess.

[houseworker]

I meant no offense, but there is still a part of me thats saying its better to just pay a bit more and get a luthier built one.

Do you have any idea who actually makes Eddie Blevins mandolins? His website is surprisingly coy - in the violin trade that would generally be taken as a sign that they're being shipped in from Asia for finishing (and labelling).

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

How many KM-1000's, KM-1500's and Northfield's (in particular) have you actually played? I assume you must have some experience to base your opinion on?

Yes, there are some builders in the US who can turn out a very good instrument in the $1K-1.7K range. I've played quite a few over the years. Some I liked - some I didn't (for various reasons). I would not generalise, however, and say they were all "better" or "worse" than those I mentioned above. It really is not that simple. Some of them were real dogs, sound-wise (in my opinion). Build and finish quality was also all over the place. Others were very good value in all respects.

Taking Northfield specifically, their F-models range from around $2.6-$5.5K. Now... people are not buying instruments like that because they are "cheap". They are buying them because they are a very, very good mandolin indeed. I can say that on the basis of owning one (a Big Mon) and also having quite a number of other very good instruments available to compare it with. To dismiss all Asian built mandolins as if they are automatically second-rate junk is a very outdated view. There was some truth to it 30 odd years ago, though even then, the Sumi-built Kentucky's were pushing the envelope, but now... no way.

Go take a listen to Adam Steffey's latest CD. Sounds a long way from a second rate mandolin to me.

Ivan, a Big Mon to the same spec as Adam's is around the $5,500 mark, or a bit above. That's with the best selected materials used.

I,ll be honest I owned a Ky mandolin in the past and I unloaded it after 6 months it was heavy and just flat sounding, it had too much wood in it, I dont remember exactly which model it was but I hink it was the middle of the line F model I paid about 500 bucks for it. I had a friend from Kentucky ( a very good mandolin player I might add ) that hade a KY km1000 I know it had the solid carved top, and I thought it was ok, but even he doesnt use it anymore, he gave it to is son. The only other Ky I played was one time at Sam Ash music store...it had like a green burst finish to it....a KM 1000 to be honest, I didnt really like it much, pretty looking, but they had an F-5G hanging on the wall in there which i ended up playing every time I went in and drooled over ( however it eventually sold ) instead of the Ky it just didnt stand out to me at all. At festivals and with groups some live some not these mandolins to my ears just dont cut very well, they are too quiet and they dont sound full enough to me, this is of course my subjective opinion. believe itor not, some of the best mandolins I ever heard were built by very little known luthiers working out of small shops and Ive played gobs of em. many of them were ugly little ducklings but my goodness they cold really honk.

[almeriastrings]

Oddly enough, you will find more than one genuine, vintage Loar owner on here who rates them very highly. I'd also point out that the lower end models are not even built by the same people who craft the KM-900 and up. No KM-1000's have ever had a "green burst" finish, by the way, so I have no idea what it was you actually saw. Until very recently, you apparently did not even know that they had solid, carved tops! You then went onto insist that the mandolin has little to do with it and it is all in the strings, picks and right hand tecnnique. You certainly do have a lot of opinions! Nothing wrong with that, it's a discussion forum...

You admit you have never even played a Northfield... yet despite that, you go on to assert:


"for not much more an what they charge for some of these top of the line pac-rimmers. For four hundred bucks more or so you could have a kick hiney mandolin way better than any of these asian ones...even the best asian ones...just my opinion "

I wish I had the confidence to be so sure about things I know absolutely nothing about. Then again, maybe I don't.

[almeriastrings]

To return to the OP's original question, obviously, there are a lot of things than differentiate instruments, price-wise. Everything from materials to details of fine work that most people (unless they are familiar with such things) often don't even notice initially. For example, side binding. Adds quite a lot time.. and the more there is, the more there is to go wrong.. so getting this absolutely right is one measure of a fine instrument. Then, there's spraying vs spirit vs oil varnish.. staining... a lot of things that can be either relatively fast or very time consuming.



When you are looking at the very best luthier's work, the precision and quality of details like this really jumps out at you:



All that takes time to do.. time is money... and if a builder is working to almost zero tolerances in terms of errors/defects, then that adds to costs too.

If "rough and ready" is OK, then obviously, prices come down. The question you have to ask, though, is that if a builder is producing less-than-stellar finish and detail work, what else is less than ideal? If you can't bind a headstock cleanly, for example, how can anyone be sure your plate carving is any better? That can translate into structural integrity, as well as tonal properties. Personally, I have not seen any mandolins where the finish looked like it had been put on with a fence brush or where the detail work was obviously poor that I would be tempted to buy. One reason is that there are quite a number of builders out there who deliver very nicely built and well finished instruments at very fair prices.

[JeffD]

I'm sorry I'm so skeptical,

No problem. This is all discussion. Its good to get a range of ideas and thoughts.

but I just for some reason have a hard time thinking ( in my personal opinion) that these mandolins are really as good as I am reading a lot of folks are saying they are.

I think most folks around here are pretty informed and more on the skeptical side, perhaps harder to impress than otherwise. So if someone appears to love an instrument, I am inclined to believe that particular instrument is pretty loveable. I don't have to agree with them, maybe, but I think its not foolish to lean that way.

I'll have to try them out for myself I guess.

Always the best way. Your own expectations, what your ears and hands and heart demand of an instrument, all individual. It will be good to see what you think.

While I like the idea of supporting small shops and independent luthiers, (love the idea actually), I think the days are long gone when you could accurately dismiss all Asian factory builds.

[vegas]

Do you have any idea who actually makes Eddie Blevins mandolins? His website is surprisingly coy - in the violin trade that would generally be taken as a sign that they're being shipped in from Asia for finishing (and labelling).

That's interesting. After looking at his website that was the first thought that popped into my mind and I know diddly about actually building mandolins. It's a simple matter of economics. How could he offer what appear to be nicely made F5 style mandolins so cheaply? Has anybody actually asked him or know for certain if he finishes imports?

[almeriastrings]

While I like the idea of supporting small shops and independent luthiers, (love the idea actually), I think the days are long gone when you could accurately dismiss all Asian factory builds.

Indeed. In addition there are "factories" and "small shops" in Asia too. Northfield, for example, have FIVE PEOPLE.

http://www.northfieldinstruments.com/about-us

I really think origin is not the key factor anymore. There are good builders, and good small shops, all over the place. There are some very good European builders too. Go by the instrument - not where it was put together.

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

That's interesting. After looking at his website that was the first thought that popped into my mind and I know diddly about actually building mandolins. It's a simple matter of economics. How could he offer what appear to be nicely made F5 style mandolins so cheaply? Has anybody actually asked him or know for certain if he finishes imports?

Eddie just got into building mandolins, if you look at all the pages on his website and on his facebook page he has pictures of his building processes, the carving and graduating of the tops and backs, custom necks. He has been researching Roger Siminoffs method for a while and has finally launched out into the world of building.
I know some luthiers in the Orlando Florida area who built F-model mandolins for around US 1800 - 2000 that were pratty nice sounding and looking mandolins, so they are out there if you want to find them. I am going to step out on a limb and say that maybe Eddie is offering such a reasonable price right now because he is trying to get his name out there.
I'm really excited for him and wish him all the best on his luthery venture, he's a really nice guy and I am glad to be one of his first customers. He is building number 10 for me.
I'll say its true, I do believe right-hand technique, picks, strings are the biggestvfactormin tone, and I will say I have heard some excellent players play some terrible mandolins and sound good and vice versa, but I still want a hand made, solid carved and graduated instrument. My questions about asian models were in reference to a back up mandolin.
With regards to the greenish burst, gosh I dont know how to describe it but it had kinda a greenish, brownish, faded sunburst. It was a Ky model, but I cant remember. It was very pretty to look at, had a nice clean scroll, but it sounded very flat and didnt seem to resonate very well. I had a friend with me who was a luthier that built mandolins he told me "see that? Feel it, feel how heavy it is compared to the Gibson and compared to the ones I build? I dunno I could feel and hear the difference, it just didnt do anything for me, but it looked pretty. This was in the late 90s I guess so a while ago.
Like I said, yes I do have lots of opinions and they are just that, but I havent even so much as looked at a mandolin in about 7 years or so so give me some slack.
To say that the mans website is coy or to imply that he is doing something dishonest like that is unfair, just because he has a simple wordpress website, and maybe is starting out with advertising a new business online doesnt mean he is a scheister. He has discovered that he enjoys building mandolins and is trying to start a side business doing it. i alsk him why he charges what he does.

[houseworker]

To say that the mans website is coy or to imply that he is doing something dishonest like that is unfair, just because he has a simple wordpress website, and maybe is starting out with advertising a new business online doesnt mean he is a scheister. He has discovered that he enjoys building mandolins and is trying to start a side business doing it.

I certainly didn't imply that Mr Blevins is doing anything dishonest, nor did I call him a shyster. I do however think that some customers are naive.

Eddie Blevins' website neither claims that he is a luthier, nor that he makes the instruments he sells. The only picture of him on the website shows him holding an instrument "in the white". He may or may not make the instruments himself, I don't know.

I would have no issue if he is buying in instruments from Asia for completion. It's hardly a new phenomenon, and the standard of the best Chinese instruments is superb.

I dislike intensely the way you dismiss the entire spectrum of Chinese made mandolins, using "pac-rimmers" and "asian" as terms of abuse, and I find your attitude unpleasant and racist.

On their Facebook page, Eddie Blevins Mandolin Works describes you as a "missionary brother" and that might explain why you are prepared to so enthusiastically recommend the work of someone who hasn't yet completed your mandolin.

[Eddie Blevins]

Hello Gentlemen. Since I have become the general focus of this thread, through no fault of my own, I will chime in. I build mandolins. I build them from scratch. I start with wood that comes from instrument wood suppliers (not kits). I carve by hand all of my tops, backs and necks. I assemble my instruments. I inlay and bind my instruments. I tap tune the tops, backs and tone bars. I finish my instruments and then set them up. I do not build my own cases. I do not build my own tuners, bridges or tailpieces. If any of you would like to see my shop, please let me know. I'd be happy to show you how it's done.

[houseworker]

Thanks Eddie, that's very clear.

[Mandosummers]

...but I have played many excellent and good ones, most by small luthiers with little notoriety. Im suprised that their is all this pushing all the time for manufactured mandolins when their really are so many exceptional luthiers out there who will build you a really nice mandolin at a very fair price...for not much more an what they charge for some of these top of the line pac-rimmers. For four hundred bucks more or so you could have a kick hiney mandolin way better than any of these asian ones...even the best asian ones...just my opinion

Many years ago I contracted a "small luthier with little notoriety" to build a mandolin. They had a sample mando that was very nice so I paid half down and told them to get started. I was young and broke but every few weeks I would pay a few hundred more. The more I paid the less the project seemed to be a priority. Finally I had completely paid for the mandolin and progress all but stopped. Well over a year and a half later I finally got my mandolin. It was a bitter disappointment. The carving of the back was botched and out of proportion. The neck set at about a 20 degree angle side to side from the top so the bridge had to be set at an angle. It sounded thin and tinny and looked homemade, nothing like the example I was shown at the start. At that point my money was gone and there was no getting it back without a lawsuit. So my humble "fool's" advise is not to listen to someone advising you to have an unknown luthier "build you a really nice mandolin". Go and try one of their mandolins that is already finished. If it speaks to you, buy it.

Wow, and to say that just because a mandolin is made by an unknown up and coming luthier... "you could have a kick hiney mandolin way better than any of these asian ones...even the best asian ones..." is simply ludicrous. But hey, maybe we all need to listen to this guy... he seems to be more of an authority than the likes of Steffey, Ramsey, Lester...

[mandolirius]

<Like I said, yes I do have lots of opinions and they are just that, but I havent even so much as looked at a mandolin in about 7 years or so so give me some slack.>

You post uniformed, biased opinions on, then arrogantly demand you be "cut slack" for doing so? I think not.

[shortymack]

The part I find funny is not believing peoples opinions here when they say somethings good. If there ever was a place that you should trust folks about mandolins, its here.

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

Many years ago I contracted a "small luthier with little notoriety" to build a mandolin. They had a sample mando that was very nice so I paid half down and told them to get started. I was young and broke but every few weeks I would pay a few hundred more. The more I paid the less the project seemed to be a priority. Finally I had completely paid for the mandolin and progress all but stopped. Well over a year and a half later I finally got my mandolin. It was a bitter disappointment. The carving of the back was botched and out of proportion. The neck set at about a 20 degree angle side to side from the top so the bridge had to be set at an angle. It sounded thin and tinny and looked homemade, nothing like the example I was shown at the start. At that point my money was gone and there was no getting it back without a lawsuit. So my humble "fool's" advise is not to listen to someone advising you to have an unknown luthier "build you a really nice mandolin". Go and try one of their mandolins that is already finished. If it speaks to you, buy it.

Wow, and to say that just because a mandolin is made by an unknown up and coming luthier... "you could have a kick hiney mandolin way better than any of these asian ones...even the best asian ones..." is simply ludicrous. But hey, maybe we all need to listen to this guy... he seems to be more of an authority than the likes of Steffey, Ramsey, Lester...

For the record, I apologize for offending anyone, my observations were based upon my own personal experiences. My statement about what I said about unknown luthiers, however, is true. It's true, I haven't been able to personally play any of Eddies mandolins beforehand, nor would I be able to, or just about any for that matter. I am currently living in a fairly small city in Argentina, so it's difficult. However, from past experiences I can tell you that I have played many many different mandolins, in diff places at diff festivals that were built by luthiers in small shops many built in limited numbers. Aesthetically, many looked better than others, but I can tell you most of the ones that I played in my opinion were above average sounding instruments to say the least. Many times when we would play diff gigs at festivals I would afterwards meet alot of builders and get a chance to hob-nob and play diff instruments by diff builders...usually from the local area we were in, or just chance meets with other musicians at the festivals.

one gentleman that i met was from georgia, he had only built a few mandolins out of his garage and they were rather rough looking, the neck angle seemed a little high and steep, but they actually werent uncomfortable to play at all and sounded really very good. the finish and cosmetics were very rough, the scrolls were very rough, but I actually liked the sound of the mandolin better than my Summit F-100 that I had at the time.

I just wanted to bring to the op's attention that their are many small builders out there building fine mandolins at really very reasonable prices if you really willing to look and do some research.....more than one might realize...and I know because of past experiences. Maybe you won't get the prettiest mandolin and maybe you will, but no harm done in considering the small guys just starting out.....every builder has to start somewhere right?

I am sorry about your bad experience with a small unknown builder. To be honest, to date my only bad experiences with mandolins frankly were all imports, I just havent played one "yet" to be honest that I didnt like. However I am intrigued that I am reading that some manufacturers are actually beginning to really build some noteworthy instruments...so as I said in my earlier posts, when I am home for Thanksgiving, I want to play some of these for myself and draw my own conclusion.

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

<Like I said, yes I do have lots of opinions and they are just that, but I havent even so much as looked at a mandolin in about 7 years or so so give me some slack.>

You post uniformed, biased opinions on, then arrogantly demand you be "cut slack" for doing so? I think not.

Opinions? "Yes" uninformed? "No" my observations are based upon my past experiences and nothing more. I shared what I have actually experienced. Actually my statement about "cutting me some slack" was just me trying to lighten things up a bit ok?

[Scott Tichenor]

Time to dial back the personal attacks. A couple of you here have a history of abusing Forum Guidelines. If you're unable to discern if you're one of those people that's still no excuse for the behavior displayed in this thread. We will not hesitate to enforce the forum guidelines. You've been warned.

Eric, you assisted in creating this. Making blanket general statements is going to get called into question. We will enforce forum guidelines. We will not protect you against your own statements. Those are yours.

[almeriastrings]

. It was a Ky model, but I cant remember. It was very pretty to look at, had a nice clean scroll, but it sounded very flat and didnt seem to resonate very well. I had a friend with me who was a luthier that built mandolins he told me "see that? Feel it, feel how heavy it is compared to the Gibson and compared to the ones I build? I dunno I could feel and hear the difference

Well, unless you are talking about a KM-1000/1500 this is fairly irrelevant. If you are implying this "fact" is true of those models - and several times you have said "they have too much wood on them" - then I simply do not agree with you, certainly in terms of relative weights. I have two KM-1000's and two Gibson F-5's here with me right now, and picking them up one after the other I'd have to say any differences are very minor indeed. I do not have my accurate balance scales here, but I'll be happy to weight them accurately over the weekend and report back. Both KM-1000's feel very lightly built to me. If they were heavily built, I think I'd know it. They're not.

If, as you say, you "haven't so much as looked at a mandolin in 7 years or so", I would respectfully suggest you should get up to speed on the subject before being quite so ready to denigrate entire countries (and continents) craftspeople on the basis of very, very limited experience indeed. There are some seriously nice instruments being made today all over the world. Sure, there is some junk too - but you can also find junk from all over.

[FLATROCK HILL]

When you are looking at the very best luthier's work, the precision and quality of details like this really jumps out at you:

Hi almeriastrings,

Were you contrasting those two images you posted, or were you suggesting that both of them exhibit nice workmanship? The top one looks to be an example of a Northfield and it looks nice to me. The binding is different on the lower example, maybe more time consuming to make those fancy cuts around the point area, but both look beautiful to me.

Just wondering if you'd clarify that for me. Sorry if I'm thick-headed.

[Eric Michael Pfeiffer]

Well, unless you are talking about a KM-1000/1500 this is fairly irrelevant. If you are implying this "fact" is true of those models - and several times you have said "they have too much wood on them" - then I simply do not agree with you, certainly in terms of relative weights. I have two KM-1000's and two Gibson F-5's here with me right now, and picking them up one after the other I'd have to say any differences are very minor indeed. I do not have my accurate balance scales here, but I'll be happy to weight them accurately over the weekend and report back. Both KM-1000's feel very lightly built to me. If they were heavily built, I think I'd know it. They're not.

If, as you say, you "haven't so much as looked at a mandolin in 7 years or so", I would respectfully suggest you should get up to speed on the subject before being quite so ready to denigrate entire countries (and continents) craftspeople on the basis of very, very limited experience indeed. There are some seriously nice instruments being made today all over the world. Sure, there is some junk too - but you can also find junk from all over.

No problem I think thats a fair assumption, I do want to play a few of these when I visit the states. I also apologize for coming across as being a bit snide with my former remarks. i would like to play most notably the jboviers (as you recommended) The Loars and also the Northfields...wanna here for myself.

[mandolirius]

Opinions? "Yes" uninformed? "No" my observations are based upon my past experiences and nothing more. I shared what I have actually experienced. Actually my statement about "cutting me some slack" was just me trying to lighten things up a bit ok?

Ok, I get your point.