the mandolin in bluegrass?

[Timbofood]

Speaking of "superlative"side of this interesting music,I seem to remember hearing that the D-45 that Marty plays was Lester's which was actually a D-28 that Mike Longworth converted and the inlay "L-5" was reference that it was Longworth's fifth inlay conversion. Can anyone confirm or refute that? Don't remember when or where I heard it.

[ralph johansson]

Monroe considered "time" or rhythm one of the main characteristics of his style; one of his frequent comments on other musicians, in the Blue Grass Boys or not, was "he has good time."

Working as he did with a variety of sidemen, some picked up for a single short-notice performance, Monroe began enforcing "time" by using damped, closed-chorded mandolin in a metronomic off-beat -- the "chop." Not all he did, not in every instance on every song. but pervasively enough, that "chopping" became a dominant style of mandolin rhythm playing in bluegrass. As it is still.

The "chop" sound has been likened to the "chick" sound in "boom-chick" bass-snare drum rhythm, hence the comparison. If there's documentation that Monroe explicitly said he was copying the snare drum, I'm not aware of it. And of course he didn't "replace the (non-existent) snare drum in string band music," and no one thinks he did. Monroe listened to many styles of music, and incorporated influences, so he may have liked the "2 & 4" snare drum sound, thought it played well off the bass -- dunno.

Banjo players also often "comp" on the off-beat, when trading back-up figures with other instruments. Fiddlers may do short off-beat double-stops. A more treble-oriented "2 & 4" working off bass and guitar down-beats is not just the mandolin's role.

Arguing about whether mandolin "chops" are explicitly patterned after common snare drum figures, or just sound similar (which they do), seems like, well, "dancing about architecture," in mandroid's felicitous phrase.

The back-up role of the mandolin varies, as does the role of the fiddle and banjo. For all three there's the most rudimentary rhtymic role represented by the scractch on the fiddle, the snap of the banjo and the chop of the mandolin; at the next level there's long notes, rolls or tremoloes (or more elaborate rhtymic figures), respectively, and at the highest level counter-melodies and fills. I don't like the way some people think of the mandolin as a two-state automaton, solo or chop, nothing in-between. With a good rhythm guitarist there's certainly no need to reduce the role of the mandolin.

As I said before the chop confirms the 2/2 groove predominant in Bluegrass. I don't know when exactly Monroe settled on that but it's constructive to compare the two recordings of Georgia Rose, in C and B respectively. On the 1950 recording Joel Price keeps a steady 4/4, on the 1954 you have Ernie Newton's 2/2, with his brush and pad on the afterbeat. I don't have the latter anymore but on Youtube there's an Opry clip with Monroe playing
it in B with Newton on bass and with his typical chop. But on many of the numbers with Edd Mayfield or Jimmy Martin, at least not the very fast ones (which we don't need anyway), you can hear him tremoloing behind the fiddle or banjo and the music certainly does not fall apart rhythmically.

[ralph johansson]

Speaking of "superlative"side of this interesting music,I seem to remember hearing that the D-45 that Marty plays was Lester's which was actually a D-28 that Mike Longworth converted and the inlay "L-5" was reference that it was Longworth's fifth inlay conversion. Can anyone confirm or refute that? Don't remember when or where I heard it.

According to most accounts it's a genuine D45, which he got from Johnny Cash.

[ralph johansson]

Wow... I don't know what else to say. Seems to be two or three parallel conversations going here. Not gonna count angels on the head of this particular pin. But.. what I said -- obviously imperfectly -- was that if you can p-l-a-y Bluegrass you can play anything. Technique and genre are two different things. The chops necessary to play at speed -- even to play rhythm guitar -- in a good Bluegrass band takes a lot of chops. Has everything to do with the mechanics of pick to fingered strings.

To kvetch over whether or not a mandolin chop replace an actual snare drum is to parse words. The other gentleman and myself should have phrased it as ”down beat.” Whether you have a drum, a musical instrument or the clapping of hands, whatever.

“The mandolin is actually the most dispensable instrument in BG, a luxury item. If handled with imagination it can really spice things up. It is certainly not the backbone of BG rhythm…”

is probably the most curious thing I’ve ever read about Bluegrass. This is a kind and gentle board I believe so I’ll just leave it at that. I will say this, based on listening to Bluegrass since 1961, attending I don’t know how many BG concerts, shows, picking sessions, parking lot get togethers is that the mandolin is the essential rhythm instrument in a Bluegrass band. Any luxury item as you describe would be a Dobro. Mr. Monroe played the mandolin. He invented the genre called Bluegrass. He laid down the rules for rhythm. How anyone can listen to even one cut of Bluegrass and not hear that the mandolin holds the time together is beyond me. The so-called rhythm guitar – usually a Martin Dreadnaught – lays down the 1/3 with a brush of the treble strings for the 2/4 or in cut time the 2, but the mandolin is much louder that the acoustic guitar and it is in fact what you hear.

I would highly doubt that Mr. Grisman would cite his piano lessons or playing in a jug band as the basis for the hand/eye coordination necessary to play the mandolin at Bluegrass velocity. I’ll give you an example although Mr. Johansson, living in Europe, perhaps you might not have seen this show: Marty Stuart plays with his band the Fabulous Superlatives on “The Marty Stuart Show,” a terrific half-hour on RFD television most Saturday afternoons. They can play anything from the Staple Singers to R&R, R&B, hard C&W, Texas Swing, reggae, swamp rock perfectly. They are a killer-diller group. Marty plays brilliant stringbending on Clarence’s old Tele and smokes it on his old D-45. But he has told my friend Gene Parsons who built Clarence’s ’54 Tele that he doesn’t consider himself a guitar player but a mandolin player. And if you watch his technique you will agree. Marty can lay pipe on a mandolin and that’s no lie. He got that technique, his incredible clarity and power from playing in some of the biggest-named BG bands in the business starting when he was a kid.

We can all disagree and be civil, even downright friendly. I have no axe to grind, it’s all good… back to work. Peace and out.

I suggest you listen to soem oif the early Decca numbers with Jimmy Martin or Edd Mayfield oin guitar.

As for Grisman my point was he did not really get his start in Bluegrass.

And of course, Bill Monroe did not invent Bluegrass, and his ideas of rhtyhm, and the role of the mandolin changed quite a bit over the
years.

[AlanN]

All I can add is that the mandolin (and its chop) has, in the past generation or 2, become a vital ingredient in the bluegrass mix. If it's not there, the band is seen to be lacking somewhat. Good or bad, your call.

[Timbofood]

Ok, I am mistaken about Marty's guitar. So what's the story with the "L-5" inlay on Lester's guitar? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Kieran]

Hello, all,
A few days ago we went to go buy some plants for our backyard and wound up buying this cool-looking grass that was a blueish-grey in color.
I laughed and made a joke about bluegrass. Then started wondering: How is the mandolin used in bluegrass? I don't listen to it much but really love the name and would like to listen to it more, but not sure where to start. I know in ITM the mandolin is mainly used for melody, but know little to nothing about bluegrass.
thanks

Mix the two and this could give you greengrass

http://www.moloneymusic.com

[bjewell]

That D-45 doesn't have L-5 on it, that's an old 28 Lester played. As the gentleman said above, I believe Marty got that guitar from Johnny, probably to make up for Cash scratching up Marty's mandolin. And Mr. Johansson, if Bill didn't invent Bluegrass, then who did?

[Timbofood]

Thanks bjewell,
That seems to clear some dust from my mental attic, the L-5 inlay on Lester's 28 does have a connection to Mike Longworth though does it not? I know I read that somewhere!
Seems reasonable of Cash to do something nice after the name carving in the mandolin.
And yes, if Bill did not invent bluegrass, who did?
Seems like a lot of tangents on this thread or am I mistaken on that one too?
Where did I put my coffee?

[allenhopkins]

Speaking of "superlative"side of this interesting music,I seem to remember hearing that the D-45 that Marty plays was Lester's which was actually a D-28 that Mike Longworth converted and the inlay "L-5" was reference that it was Longworth's fifth inlay conversion. Can anyone confirm or refute that? Don't remember when or where I heard it.

True; reference.

[bjewell]

Thanks Allen. Jim Grainger and Mike were converting 28s to 45s back in the day and Martin located Mr. Longworth and hired him. Jim still has a terrific repair shop -- Custom Fretted Instruments -- in Sparta TN. He has done all of my work for many years. I sent more than a few guitars his way from Tokyo.

The "L-5" guitar is in the Country Music Hall of Fame in a glass case. It's a D-28 and it's not the D-45 Marty plays.

http://www.premierguitar.com/article...ame_and_Museum

Here's the story on Marty's guitar from the gentleman who sold it to him:

Tut Taylor posted this note a few weeks back on Flatpick-L about Marty's D-45:

"Here is the story about Marty's D45. I've posted this umpteen times. I traded a banjo for the guitar in the late 60's or very early 70's. I sold it to Hank Williams, Jr. who, along with Johnny Cash, were both avid gun collectors. He traded it to Cash for guns. Later when Marty was a member of the Cash family he acquired it. There was a hole in the top that had been repaired with a spruce patch with the grain running the opposite direction. Cash brought it by GTR (George-Tut-Randy - the original name of what is now Gruhn Guitars) and Randy Wood removed the spruce patch and put in a pearl ( or abalone ) patch. That's my story and I'm sticking to it for it is truth."

Tutbro

[Timbofood]

Thanks Alan, I knew some of what I thought must be true, albeit somewhat scattered. I had thought that the conversion was the story behind the L-5. My mind is not quite as full of mush as I had thought. I somehow thought that Marty's was Lester's not Cash's. Now, I can file the correct information and clean more mental space for more valuable trivia!
I love this site!!

[DataNick]

And of course, Bill Monroe did not invent Bluegrass...

Politely speaking, there's a lot of well informed musicologists who would disagree with you.

Mr. Monroe is credited with combining elements of old-time, fiddle music, country blues, mountain gospel, and jazz into a completely new and uniquely American musical genre/idiom that is identified as "Bluegrass".

I didn't know that was even debate fodder...

[FLATROCK HILL]

Politely speaking, there's a lot of well informed musicologists who would disagree with you.

Mr. Monroe is credited with combining elements of old-time, fiddle music, country blues, mountain gospel, and jazz into a completely new and uniquely American musical genre/idiom that is identified as "Bluegrass".

I didn't know that was even debate fodder...

C'mon now Nick...We're on a mandolin forum debating whether or not the mandolin keeps rhythm in a Bluegrass band. Next it will be the whereabouts of a bear's defecation.

[sgarrity]

That's what is so great about the internet.......you can find someone that will argue the sky is green and the grass is blue! Hey wait, that could be a song........

[bjewell]

C'mon now Nick...We're on a mandolin forum debating whether or not the mandolin keeps rhythm in a Bluegrass band. Next it will be the whereabouts of a bear's defecation.

-LLL- This has been a lot of fun ya know? Hey are you going to eat that last squirrel leg or is it mine?

[Tom Coletti]

Next it will be the whereabouts of a bear's defecation.

Bears do not defecate. They convert their solid waste into gamma ray bursts which can then be harnessed to create a real Santa Claus.




--Tom

[M.Marmot]

C'mon now Nick...We're on a mandolin forum debating whether or not the mandolin keeps rhythm in a Bluegrass band. Next it will be the whereabouts of a bear's defecation.

The answer to that will be found just as soon as someone can clear all these trees

[Timbofood]

Now y'all just gettin' silly!

[lowtone2]

George is more than just an immaculate beard-he also knows something about the essence of bluegrass...

[ralph johansson]

All I can add is that the mandolin (and its chop) has, in the past generation or 2, become a vital ingredient in the bluegrass mix. If it's not there, the band is seen to be lacking somewhat. Good or bad, your call.

That may be true, and a bit unfortunate.

[ralph johansson]

That D-45 doesn't have L-5 on it, that's an old 28 Lester played. As the gentleman said above, I believe Marty got that guitar from Johnny, probably to make up for Cash scratching up Marty's mandolin. And Mr. Johansson, if Bill didn't invent Bluegrass, then who did?

I reject the idea that any given individual created a specific genre. Monroe organized the first BG band, and he certainly saw the potential of Chubby Wise's fiddling and Scruggs' banjo style for his group sound, but he certainly did not invent any of these. And in the beginning, at least, it was the banjo that sold the sound. Of course, to me, the fiddle, whenever present, is really the main instrument of Bluegrass, but that is a different argument altogether.

[bjewell]

Ralph, no offense, but you haven't a clue about what we are discussing here...

[bjewell]

I want to add to my post because it sound flippant and I mean no disrespect. Bill Monroe is the founding figure of Bluegrass. That is beyond dispute by virtually anyone who has come into contact with the genre over the last 70 years or so. The mandolins is a core instrument of Bluegrass and no one who is even minimally aware of the so-called sound of the music would dispute that. Whether it is a waltz, a cut time or 4/4 song or tune, the mandolin plays a vital role in Bluegrass outlining the rhythm by playing the back beat forcefully. This is beyond dispute.

There are many people from Europe and Great Britain who know a terrific amount about this music and who play it very, very well. That is also beyond dispute. But your notions about Bluegrass Ralph are at variance with virtually everyone I know who plays, enjoys, studies or loves Bluegrass music. It's great that you feel so passionate about your opinions but that doesn't necessarily make them correct.

[DataNick]

I want to add to my post because it sound flippant and I mean no disrespect. Bill Monroe is the founding figure of Bluegrass. That is beyond dispute by virtually anyone who has come into contact with the genre over the last 70 years or so. The mandolins is a core instrument of Bluegrass and no one who is even minimally aware of the so-called sound of the music would dispute that. Whether it is a waltz, a cut time or 4/4 song or tune, the mandolin plays a vital role in Bluegrass outlining the rhythm by playing the back beat forcefully. This is beyond dispute.

There are many people from Europe and Great Britain who know a terrific amount about this music and who play it very, very well. That is also beyond dispute. But your notions about Bluegrass Ralph are at variance with virtually everyone I know who plays, enjoys, studies or loves Bluegrass music. It's great that you feel so passionate about your opinions but that doesn't necessarily make them correct.

+1;

If I desire to be academically honest, at some point I must reconcile my strong passions against the overwhelming body of scholarly work documented on an issue; in this case bluegrass. I can choose to disagree, but to state that the majority academic opinoin with which a great deal of investigative scholarly work has been accumulated in the converse is just wrong, is to then leave the realm of academic discussion and now enter into my opinion versus yours; which ultimately is worthless.

"Opinoins are like armpits; they stink and everyone has a couple"...

Ralph, if you're truly interested, a good starting place is Robert Cantwell's "Bluegrass Breakdown: The Making Of The Old Southern Sound".