Ethics of filming amateur musicicans

[stringalong]

At band practice recently, one member of the band brought along a friend of hers to hear us. This band member is also a very good friend of mine. l I have been coaching her for a year on playing music in general (she plays tenor guitar chords/rhythm). She has improved so much in a year -- she started first off by having trouble playing the two chords in the proper places in Old Joe Clark. Now, she can read chord sheets easily, knows quite a few chords. I explained to her that "No one should touch or hold a musician's instrument without their permission. They must ask, and the musician may say No." That may have been the first time I told her that, but she agreed that was the way to go.

This friend she bought with her quietly, and unannounced, was filming our PRACTICE. We were not performing! I was at a loss, but allowed the first (at least I hope it was the first!) film she made to stand. She played it for us and we did very well in this particular tune/song. Then she filmed another practice tune. I was rusty, and the tenor guitar player also messed up. So I told the amateur film-maker, "Stop filming!" And then I said, "Please delete that. We were terrible." She said, "I'll delete it when I get home." I said, "NOW. Delete it NOW." She didn't even know how to delete from her device. But apparently, she figured it out, and so was able to delete it. Then she recorded ANOTHER practice tune, ditto. I said "Delete it NOW." I'm not sure if she deleted that one or not.

All this was very embarrassing and disturbing to me. It was a sticky situation, because the film-maker was visiting from another state, and would be leaving the next day for her home. I didn't want to give a lecture to her and my friend, while in the group practice.

I will write an Ethics page in the website I maintain for the group. Then I can suggest to my friend that she read it. However, I would like to find something online about this. I don't want this writing to be solely my opinions and my own ideas and values. I googled filming amateur musicians without their permission. All I got was many commentaries on legal issues regarding professional performers.

Does anyone have any advice, experience, or links about these ethical and/or traditional issues? (This is not the first time that I've encountered non-musicians who have no idea how to treat musicians. For another instance, I'm used to jamming, particularly at people homes and parties, where we jam, then maybe take a break to eat or something, then jam some more. Usually this is all the music there is. But I went to a jam at one woman's party at her home, and every time we took a break, she'd crank up her stereo. I thought this was tacky and rude. It was not a restaurant or bar. It was a private party. What do y'all think about this issue too? Was I being too fussy?)

[Mandobart]

This is just my thinking, and I hadn't thought about it before your post, but....

Yes. I think you're overreacting. As Neil Young says, "...everything is on YouTube now. If you suck its on YouTube. If you're great its on YouTube." If you haven't regularly recorded your practices yourself you should. Its important to hear (and see) what it really sounds/looks like. If you're not ready to be recorded, you're not ready to be performing in public. Granted this was a private practice and not a public performance, but really what is the harm in being recorded?

I agree that its only polite to ask someone before you take a picture/video/audio, but insisting on deletion is over the top to me. I would not think it out of line to ask the documenter to share whatever they document with the band.

[ollaimh]

i would object to anyone filming a practice, especially without asking, but then i don't like people filming me when performing--but you have to accept it.

if i have been invited to play at a private party i expect no loud stereo, and i will get annoyed if people in the music room(usually there is a dedicated music room) talk loudly and especially if they take it on themselves to move my equipment while i am playing. goofs sometimes have the great idea to tidy up your case, but i have a major spinal injury and do not want anyone moving my case because if i have a leg or back spasm i want to immediately put my instrument into that case untill i am over it.

i recently went to a music party with a harp cittern and mandolin, they made no room for the harp--and a couple of non musicians complained when i tried to bring it in, so i squeezed into a corner seat beside a couple of non musicians and played cittern. i was playing a set of slip jigs and called the tune:"give us a drink of water", no one played so i called it again(i was told they played lots of irish stuff) someone thought i was rude but went and got me a drink of water. then i listened while a couple of young people sang several songs off a telepromptor on their cell phones--groan(in the old days reading it was considered really gauche, unless you were asked for an obscure song you hadn't sung for years) . then a few people played a few tunes, nit sets just one tune at a time for five or six minutes(so much for playing a lot of irish). then i was assked to play. i sang a song the blacksmith with cittern. during the song two of the young people came over and talked to the woman next to me (the one who wouldn't make space for my harp and thought i was an ####### to demand water). they talked loud, i played loud, they tlked louder, i played louder, straining to concentrate, finally one decided to dance and picked up my case to make her dance space in front of me. i finally stopped and asked if my playing was interferring with their conversation. they said yeah it was too loud i went for a break and when the dust had settled i grabbed my stuff and got the hell out of there. there are a lot of people like that apparantly. i am getting jaded. freebee music can be full of people who think they can do better, or don't value the entertainment because they didn't pay for it.

but what the heck, it's usually better to play at paying gigs.

[F-2 Dave]

Your friend's friend should have asked permission before filming you. Your jam experience, however unfortunate, was at the house of the host. She can do what she wants with her stereo. I wouldn't go back.

[foldedpath]

It depends on the venue. Is your band practice in a private or a public space?

I play sometimes in amateur Irish and Scottish sessions that take place in pubs and restaurants. We're often filmed, and that's okay. Can't do anything about it in a public space. I'm fine with that, and if it helps spread the word about the kind of music I like to play, all the better!

On the other hand, sometimes we have private, by-invitation sessions in my home, or other players' homes. I also have rehearsals for my gigging duo here at home. Something like that is a private space, and you should be able to tell a guest -- as strongly as necessary -- that there is a house rule about not recording the session or rehearsal, if you're not comfortable with it.

There is a generation coming up that treats video recording from their phones as a natural extension of documenting their daily lives. Sometimes they need a reminder about privacy and common courtesy by us old fogeys. Just not in a public space, where they're perfectly free to do that.

[Ron McMillan]

I don't know about ethics, but in terms of basic courtesy, filming without first checking that it is OK to do so is seriously impolite.

[ccravens]

As a technical and issue of politeness, I'm sure you are correct that a persons should ask permission before recording.

As a personal issue, I think you overreacted, at least based on your account.

[zedmando]

If it's a private rehearsal, then you should be able to tell her not to record it--unless she was given permission beforehand.
Ot in public, it's still wrong, but it's practically impossible to stop these days.

[Mark Gunter]

If it's a private rehearsal, then you should be able to tell her not to record it--unless she was given permission beforehand.
Ot in public, it's still wrong, but it's practically impossible to stop these days.

Wrong in public? By whose standards? Some of us might consider it impolite, but there is no expectation of privacy in public. By law, in general, it is perfectly permissable for people to record events, unless I totally misunderstand the law.

[Timbofood]

"Common Courtesy"
In the modern world, courtesy is becoming far from common. Should the guest have recorded without asking? No! But with today's available recording devices, it has become common practice to just take the shot, is it courteous? No but it's sure common!
I agree, you may have over reacted but, that's common practice today too. Get over it and play better next time.

[Dagger Gordon]

Quite a lot of this sort of thing can end up on Facebook, and lots of people can potentially see it.
On the other hand, everybody is in the same boat and there is so much footage of all sorts of stuff out there that frankly nobody is likely to pay all that much attention.

Having said that, other aspects of human behaviour like being drunk at a party get on Facebook all the time and can potentially do some harm to someone's reputation if they are looking for a job or something.

But in the scheme of things a bum note isn't likely to make much difference to anybody. It would still be courteous to ask, though.

[Tobin]

I used to be very reluctant to play in front of people, and the idea of someone filming would have been seriously disturbing to my psyche. Nowadays, it doesn't bother me. Even if we're just goofing around, practicing, or whatever. I figure that if I'm too uncomfortable with someone filming me play, I ought not be playing in front of people anyway.

There's a privacy issue, of course, and I agree that it's impolite at best for someone to film you without your consent. But if it's just a matter of playing badly and not wanting it recorded for posterity, then it's fundamentally an issue of vanity. And that's something that probably warrants some self-reflection on why it angers you so much. What are you afraid of? That people will laugh or think you're not very good? That's the risk of being a musician and playing in front of people. It's something we all have to overcome in our development as musicians or performers. We have to work our way past pride and develop a level of humility, being able to laugh off mistakes. Indeed, one of the hallmarks of some of the greatest musicians is their ability to make the crowd laugh with some light-hearted remarks when they screw up. There's an art to redirecting a crowd so that they remember the good music and forget about the mistakes.

Honestly, I think it's very helpful in this development to suffer through embarrassment. Whether it's falling apart in the middle of a break at a jam session, or having someone record a terrible practice session. It's still, obviously, well within your prerogative to ask the person to delete a recording. But what are you going to do when you're playing in public and totally blow it on a tune? Are you going to ask everyone in the audience to delete their recordings?

[Mandoplumb]

Professionals get big money, and people pay to hear and see them, yet for the most part they don't allow recording, I'm sure some recording is done without their knowledge. On a sense that is public but in another sense it is not. In my opinion it is wrong to record them and it is wrong to record amateurs in their homes or anywhere where you are invited without their permission. Now if they're playing in a public park or on the street, that is a different story. Before Utube I didn't worry to much about this type of recording because who would hear it? Now hundreds and perhaps millions will hear, I would not want less than my best out there.

[choctaw61]

U should have stopped the filming immediately if it was a problem.Instead when U thought the music was good U didn't say a word U allowed the filming to continue,till U thought folks were messing up.The person filming is thinking it's ok to film by this time.If it's a problem stop rehearsal or walk over and privately ask them not to film.Now the key word to the second is PARTY.Ur taking a break Ur in that person's home they want to party.They want music!I wouldnt like it either,but in my home it's my way or the hyway.U know it there was more communication at these events maybe there would be less problems.

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

The past is done. Going forward, let it be known that the group doesn't allow taping of private rehearsals. Tell everyone up front. Easy peasy and you won't likely have any more issues there.

Public rehearsals- don't do it if you don't want to be filmed.

Performance- Isn't amateur, its a business, disallow taping if you want. No issues on this- just post signs.

Jams - public jams are public. If you don't want to be filmed, don't jam.

[George R. Lane]

As a former newspaper photographer for 30 years, I have heard these same complaints often. The law states if you are standing in a public place, street or road and you can see a person or persons doing whatever, they can be photographed or filmed. You cannot go onto private property and film without the owners permission.

[Tom Morse]

Just a related anecdote: we we're playing in tavern in Maine and were set up by the door when this guy walks in and right away gets right up at the microphone and starts singing along with our lead singer. Our guitarist (mid 50s by the way) who had just had shoulder surgery and was there to sing back up whipped out his phone and started videotaping this newcomer. So we ran through the song, we all did our solos and such and the audience applauded and in the end we all had a good time and a video of us amateurs backing.....wait for it....Jonathan Edwards. Sometimes those darn videos come in pretty handy.

[stevedenver]

i have to agree with choctaw.
i think you were ...surprised, and unwilling to make it unpleasant at the time. undrestandable.
no ethics involved, imho.

now, with this incident, you are better versed and can politely and firmly set down rules for visitors.


been there myself, with a band member who did the same.

[JeffD]

I like that parsing - in public, at a public venue, concert, bar, busking on the street, there is no expectation of privacy so these days you have to accept that someone could be taking a video.

In private its a different matter. They can't video you at home through the side window. If it is a private practice then you decide.

If you are hired for a private party in a private house are you in public? That's a tough one. I am thinking it should be worked out before hand with the person holding the party. Will they allow it? Maybe they even are planning on it. If you have a preference you need to work this out with the host before hand.

[PlaneSimple]

It's the same thing as posting someone's yet to be published book.. or photos of an artist's painting that is not finished.
To the OP.. the mistake was letting it happen in the first place.

Recording at practice is off limits.. that is why it is practice.
I do not agree with the concept of no recording in public. If you don't want to be recorded.. then don't play in public.

To the comment about Neil Young.. he may say that everything is fair game for YouTube.. but I bet if I posted his yet to be released material, I'd be in for a lawsuit.
The other post about Jonathan Edwards coming up on stage without an invite.. Why would anyone feel the need to insinuate themselves into someone's show?

[MDMachiavelli]

No offense to the OP but if stringalong responded the way he/she quoted the response that was definitely over reacting. I personally, after allowing her to record the forst song would have taken a moment and explained to hear while I didn't feel completely comfortable with our practice being recorded.

I agree that in a public venue, people are free to record but I would consider my rehersals a little more private.

I completely agree that the OP had every right to feel uncomfortable, I just think it could have been handled much better.

[Jeff Mando]

Everyone with an iPhone these days is technically a "filmmaker". Sounds like to me she just wanted a souvenir of her visit to take back home -- no biggee, IMHO. NOW, if she puts it on Youtube without your permission, that's another story. She should have permission from you and your band.

I respect that you take your music and art seriously -- reminds me of myself, another lifetime ago. Back then I wanted to control every aspect of what I created -- the sound, the look, the history, the attitude, the feeling it evoked in the listener, the venue, etc. But rarely, did I get to click off all those boxes. I soon realized my "art" was mostly performed in beer joints, not museums, and I learned to just take it in stride.

All practices and gigs are not created equal. How many times have you said, "we were pretty good last night, I wish somebody had filmed it?"

Or, I should add, I wish they had the technology available to film some of my performances 30 or 40 years ago. Not that they were so great, just for the nostalgia of it.

[bigskygirl]

Yes, I think you over-reacted....hey, you asked...

The person failed to get permission beforehand but you didn't say anything at first either so she probably assumed it was ok. When you performed poorly you got self conscious and handled it poorly, you could have just pulled her aside at the break and quietly asked her to delete the file not yell (I'm assuming all caps means you were pretty insistent) in front of everyone.

I was at a jam about a year ago and a friend recorded it and it ended up on YT, at the time I was not very good and not very happy about it but I chalked it up to experience. Soooo...If you're going to play anywhere but in the privacy of your own home you may be recorded so you'll have to figure out how to get comfortable with that.

For the music at the private party, the host wanted her guests to be entertained, you took a break so she put on some music...I'm assuming she turned it off when you played again. Now you know to get that worked out beforehand.

[Mandoplumb]

I think the issue in these post is what is public? Personaly I agree with post 16. If it's private property it technically is not public though in those cases an agreement needs to be made with the owner and enforced as best it can.

[foldedpath]

If you are hired for a private party in a private house are you in public? That's a tough one. I am thinking it should be worked out before hand with the person holding the party. Will they allow it? Maybe they even are planning on it. If you have a preference you need to work this out with the host before hand.

The key word there is "hired." If my duo is hired for a wedding gig, my expectation is that people will be doing all sorts of things that aren't under my control, including shooting photos and videos. If we're good enough to get paid, we're good enough not to worry about being documented. It's up to the client to set whatever parameters they want for use of cameras. As a side note... with weddings in particular, it's becoming a real problem to discourage guests from holding up their phones in the middle of the ceremony, but that's not my problem.

Getting hired to play background music or a dance at a private party would be similar, I think. It's up to the host to set the rules, and my default expectation is that there usually aren't any rules.

On the other hand, I think the situation changes when it's billed as an actual concert and not background music. For example, a house concert in a private home, where the performer is usually paid by "donation" at the door (this avoids local tax and other legal issues for the home owner). In that case, I think it would be customary for the performer and host to agree on whatever limits they might want on people shooting video during the concert. Basically the same as a larger scale concert.

There is a gray area for amateur performances in a "private" space like an unpaid amateur Irish session in a pub or restaurant. That's technically a private space, but in practice it's usually treated as public with regard to photo/video activity. It's counterproductive for the pub owner to try controlling it, and if the session players complain, they're likely to get booted out of the venue. So it's usually treated as a de facto public space. Although, it would be considered private with respect to the law if it came down to it. For example, here in the USA anyway, a photographer couldn't take photos of the musicians and then market them as commercial stock photos without a model release. You do have at least some protections, in theory anyway.