How to play in A Flat

[ricklmf]

I have been asked to play "In the Garden" in A Flat. WItht the guitar I would just capo one and play in G. Does that work on the Madolin? Also would rather not capo a mandolin. I don't know if I can play in A Flat even if I could find the chords. I would appreciate any help.

[Phil Goodson]

Certainly the capo works on a mandolin same as guitar.

Would you be able to play this tune in any other closed position, like Bb or F?
If so, you can just move those patterns to the Ab position. If it would help, further details can be given.

[ricklmf]

I really have trouble working around the Capo. i suppose I could just transpose the song to the key of A flat and learn the chords. just so short on time.

[EdHanrahan]

Can you play in G without using open strings, both melody and chords? (Bluegrass chop chords normally avoid open strings). If so, just imagine that the fret markers are one fret higher and play it in G, or let's call it "new G", since G# and Ab are the same key.

But if you really need the open strings, hey, a capo is just a tool for making music, and there's no good reason to avoid a tool that works. "I only ever use claw hammers, 'cause we all know that ball peen hammers are for wimps." Sounds silly, doesn't it?

In case the need arises: Be aware that mandolin capos and banjo capos are the same thing.

[bigskygirl]

Well, I don't know the tune but I do know that the beauty of the mandolin is it's 5ths tuning.

If you do key of G a G chop chord (1) 7523, C chord (4) 523x and D chord (5) 745x so...move up a fret to Ab which would be 8634, Db in 634x, Eb is 856x.

You can use Jethro 3 finger chords for Ab 1134, Db 134x, Eb 356x.

For melody in a pinch plant your index finger on the root of each chord - Ab, Db, Eb - and go for the "bluegrass box", your ear will tell you when you hit a bad note.

Have fun!

[DavidKOS]

Some previous posts have mentioned capo use -

Either you use a capo on the first fret and employ the basic open string key of G fingerings,

OR, and, I say with all respect, deal with this like any Classical, jazz, Italian, choro, (etc.) mandolinist would. How?

Use closed fingerings in Ab.

Frankly, my teachers said a mandolinist should be able to play in all keys on their mandolin.

Now, if the tune and/or style really wants open strings as a sonority, great, use a capo and open string fingerings with as little guilt as a flamenco guitar player.

Otherwise, A flat ( or G sharp as it may be) is not that hard. Of course the only open string in the key is the low G, but that gives you a chance to work on 4-finger patterns.

Here's your 2 octave Ab scale in first position:

G string:

(low 7, G ) Ab, fret 1, Bb, fret 3, C, fret 5, Db, fret 6

D string: Eb, fret 1, F, fret 3, G, fret 5, Ab, fret 6

note these are the same pattern, fingers 1-2-3-4 with the half step between finger 3 and 4.

A string: Bb, fret 1, C, fret 3, Db, fret 4, Eb, fret 6

E string: F, fret 1, G, fret 3, Ab, fret 4, Bb, fret 6

note these are the same pattern, fingers 1-2-3-4 with the half step between finger 2 and 3.

That's just the scale.

The basic chords in Ab are also readily learnable:

Ab, Bbm, Cm, Db, Eb, Fm, G dim

I hope this helps make Ab - and other non-folky keys - less difficult.

[Bruce Clausen]

I really have trouble working around the Capo. i suppose I could just transpose the song to the key of A flat and learn the chords. just so short on time.

I thoroughly agree with David that you want to get — eventually— to where all the keys are just as easy. BUT as time is limited, I can think of a couple of desperate measures that might work.

1. You're accompanying singers? If you're the only instrumentalist, they may not mind singing in G instead of Ab. It's just a tiny change for them. In fact, since you'll be giving them their starting notes, they don't even need to know.

2. But if other players are involved, instead of using a capo just tune your mandolin up a half-step and play in G. Not for the squeamish.


Rest assured, pro accompanists have used these and other strategies in this kind of situation.

[ralph johansson]

Retuning might work if you're about to play only that song. Otherwise you'd have to bring two mandolins. Capos can be a bit confusing when going up the neck (I also avoid them on guitar), also they tend to throw the instrument out of tune.

Several of the posters think of Ab as G#, capo or transpose up a fret and use G fingerings. To me the most natural approach is to think of Ab as A moved down one fret, assuming that you're used to using the seventh fret in first position (I often prefer 7th fret to open for pick economy). That's one reason I reject the rigid formula "one finger, two frets", which would call for different fingerings in Ab and A. To me the natural diatonic approach is "next scale note, next finger". This tune seems to be compleely diatonic apart from an occasional B note to be fretted with the same finger as the neighboring c notes.

[Bill McCall]

There’s a chord chart listed under the ‘listen/learn’ tab at the top of this page. If you can play a G scale starting on your pinky, you can play in Ab.

But it depends on how fancy the arrangement is and the nature of the occasion. There’s a tab at mandozine for the tune in D. What key do you know the tune in?

[Mark Gunter]

... I reject the rigid formula "one finger, two frets"

Just an aside, Ralph (but you brought it up), I am curious: Where is this taught or recommended as a "rigid formula"? I have to confess that I've not heard it taught as a rigid formula anywhere, only as a tool for indicating hand position. In practice, there is no such rigid adherence to such a formula for actually playing every note; it is a guide indicated by hand positioning.

"Next scale note, next finger" would be the correct and natural way of playing scales ... and scale notes that span a whole step interval mean the fingers that play those scale notes will span two frets. Leaving scales, when chromatic runs are played, sometimes it is most efficient to play "next note, next finger" while other phrases will require sliding a finger up covering multiple frets for multiple notes. Efficiency rules. None of this explains why you recoil at the idea of proper hand position on mandolin being indicated by two frets per finger, as opposed to guitar being one fret per finger. My own opinion is that you fight a straw man when you (often) post about this. I've read your comments on the subject for years, and I just don't see where you differ in anything other than terminology.

[DougC]

Just an aside, Ralph (but you brought it up), I am curious: Where is this taught or recommended as a "rigid formula"?

It is taught by this guy on youtube at 3:58

[bobby bill]

1. You're accompanying singers? If you're the only instrumentalist, they may not mind singing in G instead of Ab.

I'm sensing that you haven't played with too many singers.

[AlanN]

Learn this number, you'll be jamming in Ab in no time...and who can spot the error in the chords?

[Bruce Clausen]

I'm sensing that you haven't played with too many singers.

Actually many many singers and choirs. I recall a very good Sinatra-style singer who wanted to do Embraceable You on a big show with guitar only (that's me) instead of the full band. His key was Eb. I talked him up to E, which made a much fuller accompaniment possible. Everyone was happy. Another singer did God Bless the Child with me in E for the same reason. But it's not a normal key for that kind of song.

I'm talking about solo guitar here. As soon as there's a bass player, I'm fine with any key.

[DavidKOS]

Learn this number, you'll be jamming in Ab in no time...and who can spot the error in the chords?

The Bbdim7 in measures 2 and 6 are not right - either the chord should be a Bbm7 (like in measure 4) or the notes should be Bb-Db-Fb-Abb. No F flat, no Abb, no Bbdim7.

[AlanN]

You. my friend, win the internet. The chord should be a Bbm7.

The fact that Jethro penned this number at all is amazing and testifies to his greatness.

[DavidKOS]

You. my friend, win the internet. The chord should be a Bbm7.

The fact that Jethro penned this number at all is amazing and testifies to his greatness.

Which Jethro book was that from, please?

[AlanN]

This one, ca. 1976.

[JeffD]

FFCP as a practice regime is very helpful in being able to move a tune from one key to another. The harder thing is to learn the tune in closed position.

[Mark Gunter]

It is taught by this guy on youtube at 3:58

Thanks Doug! Not to be contentious, but Mike does not teach that as “a rigid formula” but rather as a general rule. I teach the same, and scores of others do also. If you pay attention, you’ll find that Ralph always takes issue with this. But it is my belief that he is fighting a straw man, because it is my belief that no one teaches this as “a rigid formula”, and it is my belief that “next scale note, next finger”, when playing scales, does not change the general rule of “one finger, two frets.” Find a video, or a post on this forum, where someone teaches that this is an ironclad rule with no exceptions to which a person must rigidly adhere. If you can show me that, then maybe I’ll understand what Ralph is constantly objecting to.

[Mandobar]

Many fiddle players will tune down a half step and play out of shapes in the key of A.

[DougC]

Find a video, or a post on this forum, where someone teaches that this is an ironclad rule with no exceptions to which a person must rigidly adhere. If you can show me that, then maybe I’ll understand what Ralph is constantly objecting to.

I agree.
But I guess I'm late to the party and see no reason to voice frustrations about people. I've learned quite a bit from both of you.

[bobby bill]

Actually many many singers and choirs.

I guess I was saying something (in jest) more about the singers I have played with than the ones you have.

[Mandobar]

A flat is quite popular for vocalists, especially as they age. Voice ranges tend to get lower. I’ve played quite a few tunes in A flat, including Orphan Girl. You learn to adapt, and sometimes tune down.

[bobby bill]

A flat is quite popular for vocalists, especially as they age. Voice ranges tend to get lower.

I have heard this many times and I have given up on understanding it. How is a "c" played in the key of A flat any lower than a "c" played in the key of C? How does a key say anything about the range of notes one might find in it without direct reference to a particular tune? And if the particular tune was in G and you transposed to A flat, you would be raising the range.

I guess this is a rhetorical rant and you do not really have to try to explain it to me.