Curious about the Bluegrass mandolin market segment

[multidon]

Just in the interest of accuracy, I would like to point out that the above Deliverance related joke has been quoted inaccurately.

It SHOULD be "Paddle faster! I hear BANJO MUSIC!".

Now, this version of the joke is much more in keeping with the details of the film which inspired it, and doesn't insult any BG fans. Or does it? Someone else mentioned that Bluegrass is banjo music. I guess the guitar, bass, fiddle, and mandolin players don't need to show up.

This is the sort of thing that happens when a thread devolves into "what is Bluegrass". I've seen it many times before. I already asked, as the OP, that we stay away from that. But some of you just can't help yourselves, can you? My original question, just to refresh everyone, was why does Bluegrass, and its related sub-genres, hold such sway over the mandolins available for us to buy, the method books we use, the lessons we take, and the camps and workshops that are offered, when those players are not in the majority?

[jesserules]

why does Bluegrass, and its related sub-genres, hold such sway over the mandolins available for us to buy, the method books we use, the lessons we take, and the camps and workshops that are offered, when those players are not in the majority?

Because the people who build mandolins, write and publish method books, give lessons, and organize camps and workshops perceive bluegrass players as the market segment most likely to purcha$e their offerings.

A perception that is based upon the apparent reality that bluegrass players constitute at the present time at least a plurality of all mandolin players.

Probably worth noting that "bluegrass" as presently used is quite a vague term, often meaning nothing more specific than "acoustic (for the most part) countryish folkish music".

[DataNick]

Well, fiddle players and singer/guitar players seem to be a needed part of the BG band too, huh?

Hey David!
My point is that unlike rock, blues, country, indie, etc.where the guitar is the lead instrument, in bluegrass the banjo is the lead instrument, this is a sore spot with soundmen who don't know bluegrass, carry on!

[stevedenver]

Wow. Need a sense of humor, i think.

Playing with others has taught me that many players , with whom i play and get along, think very differently about music, and what they like.

Im for a bit of tolerance, after all, theres not one on this forum i wouldnt like to play and have a beer with, regardless of what we decided to play.

[DavidKOS]

What I have said, and believe, is that the "bluegrass style" mandolin has become pervasive in the marketplace, at least in the US. And bluegrass music, I contend, is largely responsible for this. Otherwise, why would Chinese factories be turning out thousands of copies of a Gibson F-5? Not because it's the be-all-and-end-all design for a mandolin, but because it's what US mandolin buyers expect to see -- and buy.

Well, this is true, at the NAMM show MOST of the Asian-made factory mandolins were archtop F hole styles.

Bluegrass fans and players are not all country bumpkins. Some of us hold doctoral degrees. Furthermore, Bill Monroe himself was always careful to dress the Bluegrass Boys onstage in formal wear, like suits and ties, simply to try to get away from the prejudice of folks like you. It does a disservice to this fine, original American art form to promulgate rude stereotypes about ignorant hillbilly hicks. It takes every bit as much musical virtuosity to play bluegrass well as to play jazz or classical music.

This is true, Monroe and his band tried to be PROFESSIONAL, hence the suits rather than the overalls look.

BTW, I have no issue with Bluegrass per se. But I do prefer the older guys like Monroe to the guys from urban areas. I have never really taken a shine to Grisman, for example, and his influence is very pervasive in the mandolin world.

Hey David!
My point is that unlike rock, blues, country, indie, etc.where the guitar is the lead instrument, in bluegrass the banjo is the lead instrument, this is a sore spot with soundmen who don't know bluegrass, carry on!

I sort of thought the vocals were the lead instrument in BG. Of course, the sound of a BG band is heavily based on banjo and fiddle, with mandolin and dobro being the 2nd instruments.

But you are right, a sound man needs to understand what the balance of a BG band should be, or you'll get some strange sounding mixes.

[FatBear]

I think part of the problem here is that there are lots of different views of bluegrass. Why? Because it is still an evolving style. We here in America have really been blessed in our musical heritage. Back in the 1800s there were only a few "genres" of music. Three of those - "negro music", "cowboy music", and Appalachian music (mainly Scottish and Irish) - grew and evolved into jazz, country, and bluegrass. They cross-pollinated along the way and out cropped rock and roll. And look at them. They are all still evolving. You could play modern popular rock and roll for me and I wouldn't recognize it any more than George Washington would have recognized cowboy music.

Jazz, country, rock and bluegrass are pretty much small band forms. (Small as opposed to orchestral or choral.) They can be front porch bands or mega-star bands, but they generally only have a few instruments/players and mostly just one of each type. This makes them portable, versatile, flexible, adaptable. And that has allowed them to take advantage of the cultural changes of the 20th century.

All of that growth and change was fueled by improved transportation, allowing the audiences better access to a variety of music and bands; and to amplification which allowed those people to gather in ever larger audiences which could pool their money and fund professional musicians. And they kept demanding more, newer, better and those pros kept giving it to them. Recording was the financial amplifier that matched the electronic ones and just swirled the mix more and more.

Bluegrass has progressed from the old Appalachian tunes that my father-in-law played with his friends on his porch in Boyle county Kentucky to where a bluegrass icon from southern California hosts a national radio show and plays some very cutting edge bluegrass along with every other genre he can fit onto his fretboard. And one day who knows, he may be a stodgy old man wondering at the changes that have come about during his lifetime.

Personally, I love variety and complexity and new, so I'm really eating this all up. But I think there are a lot of people who like things to be comfortable, familiar, traditional, etc. I can see how they might like to lock in the bluegrass style to a single definition and hold it there. It probably will happen some day, but hopefully not in my lifetime.

So back to the instrument question. Bluegrass is one of the big musical forms in our culture, and we are social (cultural) creatures. It is inevitable that it will wield a big influence in what is made and sold. Just as rock and roll influences electric guitars (Les Paul...) and country influences acoustic guitars (14 fret dreadnoughts). Thankfully there is a tradition of non-conformity in our country which presents a large enough market to support smaller manufacturers of alternative style instruments. Everyone can get what they want, you just might not be able to find it at the Guitar Center. I don't think things could be much better, so smile, be happy, and play what you like to play.

[jesserules]

Personally, I love variety and complexity and new, so I'm really eating this all up. But I think there are a lot of people who like things to be comfortable, familiar, traditional, etc. I can see how they might like to lock in the bluegrass style to a single definition and hold it there.

It's not about being stodgy grumpy old getoffmylawnyoukids thing.

It's about using words correctly.

Some contemporary bands that some people want - for some reason - to label as "bluegrass" are more closely related to groups like the Limeliters or the Kingston Trio than they are to the Bluegrass Boys or Flatt & Scruggs.

Which is fine. But calling their music "bluegrass" isn't open-minded or otherwise praiseworthy. It just impedes communication.

[Mandolin Cafe]

An observation.

The term "bluegrass" is a horse that left the barn a very long time ago and no longer carries the meaning some of you would like--as if there's even agreement about what it is. That's not the Mandolin Cafe talking. It's society in general which has been using it as a generic title to cover about anything. It's people that frequent this site, Facebook music forums, etc.

The horse is not returning. It's out of sight. It no longer remembers the past, and the red-faced ire some of you dwell in will be yours alone. Enjoy it, carry on if you must, but it won't change a thing.

Even IBMA's voting membership routinely awards bands and individuals with their highest prized titles, and even some of those recipients have noted with amazement at even being categorized as such. We don't personally have a problem with that because it can't be changed. It is what it is, and it's not going away.

[FatBear]

Which is fine. But calling their music "bluegrass" isn't open-minded or otherwise praiseworthy. It just impedes communication.

I bet Chuck Berry fans were really perturbed when people started calling those mop-headed Beatles a rock and roll band, too. It is going to keep changing. Better hang on for the ride.

[OldSausage]

An observation.

The term "bluegrass" is a horse that left the barn a very long time ago and no longer carries the meaning some of you would like--as if there's even agreement about what it is. That's not the Mandolin Cafe talking. It's society in general which has been using it as a generic title to cover about anything. It's people that frequent this site, Facebook music forums, etc.

The horse is not returning. It's out of sight. It no longer remembers the past, and the red-faced ire some of you dwell in will be yours alone. Enjoy it, carry on if you must, but it won't change a thing.

.

Is the horse called "Tenbrooks"?

[FLATROCK HILL]

Is the horse called "Tenbrooks"?

Well, that really is an interesting question David. The Cafe's metephor does suggest a living, breathing horse, one that left the barn and is now out of sight.
The dire finality of the post however, brings Molly to mind. "Coffin's 'ready made".

[jesserules]

I bet Chuck Berry fans were really perturbed when people started calling those mop-headed Beatles a rock and roll band, too. It is going to keep changing. Better hang on for the ride.

Well, you'd lose that bet.

Would you like to bet that Bill Monroe was outraged when Elvis recorded "Blue Moon of Kentucky"? Cause you'd lose that bet too. But Big Mon didn't call that recording "bluegrass". And neither did the King.

[Mandoplumb]

Yes BG has progressed or the horse has left the barn, BUT most people,including some of these poster, don't know when the horse was in the barn. BG did not exist until Scruggs joined Monroe, 1948 I believe, the folks sitting on some porch in the mountains, or playing on some school house stage in bib overhauls were not playing BG. It was old time, brother duet something called pre-bluegrass, or what was genericly called hill-Billie. People don't seem to realize BG and rock-n-roll are sibling, same roots same basic age. I know music changes and we debate all the time about how far we can stretch it and still call it BG, but really we can pinpoint its birth to a specific day.

[Roger Adams]

Some mandolin folks dislike bluegrass and dis the F style - Kind of a sour grapes sort of thing it seems! F styles generally are more coin than any other style of mandolin, and the F5 is the mandolin of choice for most bluegrass musicians. The add to the "injury" bluegrass is what comes to mind for most Americans when you uncase a mandolin - some folks really resent that! You are there to play classical, and they want to hear "Rocky Top."

Like it or not, those of use who play the little beast owe a lot to the influence of bluegrass on the evolution of the instrument. Me personally, make mine an F5, and let's play some Bluegrass!

I also play the banjo, and it's "Paddle faster, I hear banjos!"

[Charlieshafer]

It seems that it's not that folks, or contemporary musicians, don't like bluegrass, it's that the term, as Scott said, has become meaningless. If the original post is about market segment, then that means marketing. If you're in marketing, and music marketing for sure, you need to be a lot more specific about exactly what you're playing, or listening to, or performing, or trying to sell. Tye simple fact is that in most parts of the country, with the people I deal with, calling an upcoming show "bluegrass" will limit attendance. That simple. It's in the numbers. I suppose there's a snapshot in time where bluegrass was easily identifiable, as it grew out of old-time, coalesced into the Monroe-style music we consider as bluegrass, and then moved on to all the more modern genres. So how long is that window of time you can specifically point to that traditional style and say "that's it." 20 years? I don't know, but based on two winners of this year's IBMA awards, Sierra and Molly, in another couple of years, whatever they are doing won't resemble what they;re doing now, which already isn't bluegrass.

[Roger Adams]

Yep, and then there's The Earls and Balsom Range....lookiing like pretty traditional Bluegrass.

[stevedenver]

Some mandolin folks dislike bluegrass and dis the F style - Kind of a sour grapes sort of thing it seems! F styles generally are more coin than any other style of mandolin, and the F5 is the mandolin of choice for most bluegrass musicians. The add to the "injury" bluegrass is what comes to mind for most Americans when you uncase a mandolin - some folks really resent that! You are there to play classical, and they want to hear "Rocky Top."

Like it or not, those of use who play the little beast owe a lot to the influence of bluegrass on the evolution of the instrument. Me personally, make mine an F5, and let's play some Bluegrass!

I also play the banjo, and it's "Paddle faster, I hear banjos!"

Youre right. But....it seem things are changing. Although, mando has had a place in folk, folk rock and rock, for at least 50 years, albeit sparsely so.


Respectfully, the F5 came along before bluegrass.


Its ornate design and scrolls , imho, are unique, and, may stem from the period when ornate banjos were a parlor status symbol, all unconnected to music genre. They were special in a different way long before monroe, imho. And, always scarce until ???? The80s or 90s.

The les paul was not initially viewed as a rock guitar until bloomfield clapton and green.

Sneakers were for gym, until pro basketball made them a fashion statement.

Or, if you will, the tail wagging the dog.

Fs have an inherent aesthetic, neck feel, sound, and upper register access , at one time, and for decades, unique to the design.

I have mine in spite of the bg association. To my eye, they are a gorgeous anachronism, the steam punk of stringed instruments! LOL. My first mando gig was playing rock, little pink houses, take it easy, not fade away, on my fern..........amongst the stacks o' marshalls.

[drbluegrass]

Not sure if it was naive or just plain misinformed but when I first came to MC I was surprised to learn the forum was not overwhelmingly BG oriented. I didn't realize the number of non-BG mandolin players was considerable. I certainly can't prove it but I have a feeling that BG mandolin players are in the minority here. Just how much of a minority, I don't know. It seems to me when reading the MC General Discussion sub-forum a lot of non-BG topic is discussed. Much more so than I would have thought. I play and listen to BG music almost exclusively. Although I do enjoy listening to old time music, classical, and jazz played on mandolin.

But, when it comes to BG music, this horse prefers to "stay in the barn". Along with a whole lotta' other horses. Don't kid yourself. Traditional BG is very much alive and very well. There will ALWAYS be traditional BG music that is Monroe/Flatt and Scruggs/Stanley Bros influenced. If anyone here thinks traditional BG music no longer exists then I very respectfully submit you don't know what BG music is. I certainly do agree the boundaries of BG music are being stretched to the limit. I ran into the same mentality when I played old school jazz and blues. Traditional, straight, old school, progressive, are all terms used to try and put a handle on a particular style of music. The old adage "I can't define it, but I know it when I hear it" comes into play here.

There comes a point when a genres' parameters are stretched so far it is no longer a part of that particular genre. It becomes something else all together. But I'm confident traditional BG music will be around for decades to come. All you have to do is attend one of the hundreds of BG festivals to see that. You might also see and hear groups with a more progressive style. They may/may not still fit into the traditional BG framework. But there comes a point when the music becomes so changed and evolved it no longer fits within the genre. Defining that gray area can prove all but impossible. But when it gets to that gray area one thing I can say with some confidence is it's no longer traditional BG.

As has been suggested above, maybe the term "bluegrass" has outlived it's usefulness. Maybe we need a new category. How about..."American acoustic music"? Then, "traditional American acoustic music" and "progressive American acoustic music? But, here we go again. Is that really any different than what we're doing now? You know..."traditional BG", "progressive BG"? I prefer sticking with the current descriptors. The term, bluegrass music, not only loosely describes a genre of music but brings a certain feeling with it. It's that rustic, cabin in the mountain top woods, sittin' on the porch playing your mandolin sort of feeling that no other term brings with it. OK, I've rambled enough and I'm probably wrong on all counts. Don't take it too seriously. It's just my 2 cents.

[JeffD]

Yes, we all get it that you don't really like, and don't choose to play, bluegrass music.

Actually that's not true at all. I like bluegrass, a lot. I am not an uber fan but I do enjoy, especially the older music. And I do play in bluegrass jams now and then. I have nothing against bluegrass. Far from it. And separate from bluegrass music itself I am in awe of Bill Monroe. His playing and his accomplishments.

No, I meant no disrespect. I was trying to describe how niche bluegrass is, unless you are in the middle of it. There is so little bluegrass in this area that one could go an entire life time and not accidently bump into it. I attend the Pickin' in the Pasture festival in Lodi NY, something over two hours away, and while its a well attended festival, almost nobody from my area has ever heard of it.

My point is that there are many locations where the mandolin itself isn't recognized, and if it is there is an even chance bluegrass is not the first association in average folks minds.

I compare with banjo, which, of course, is hardly ever not recognized and almost always associated with bluegrass, whether accurate or not.

There are even pockets where bluegrass is a negative. One jam I go to, which is old time and contra dance fiddle tunes mostly, I mentioned I was going to a bluegrass festival, to see if anyone wanted to come with. Crickets was the response. Its like in some places its cool to hate country music, or something. (For the record, I know the joke I probably should not have shared before is normally told with regard to banjo players. It is sometimes heard the way I told it. Yes it is, there are people who actually say that, and have said it to me.)

No disrespect meant on my part. Just relating what not infrequently comes up in "my neck of the woods".

This is interesting, though perhaps not to be relied upon.

[Willis]

I love bluegrass music, and that's mostly what I play. That being said, Bill Monroe wasn't listening to bluegrass music when he was developing his style and his music. One thing informs the other. There are lots of things I don't have the skill or desire to pursue, but I like hearing them done by someone who does have the requisite skill and desire.

[jesserules]

There are even pockets where bluegrass is a negative. One jam I go to, which is old time and contra dance fiddle tunes mostly, I mentioned I was going to a bluegrass festival, to see if anyone wanted to come with. Crickets was the response.

Surprised? If there's any place where you're likely to find actual hostility (rather than indifference) toward bluegrass music that place is at an oldtime/contra jam. There are hardliners there who despise Bill Monroe as a sellout to commercialism.

[JeffD]

Surprised? If there's any place where you're likely to find actual hostility (rather than indifference) toward bluegrass music that place is at an oldtime/contra jam. There are hardliners there who despise Bill Monroe as a sellout to commercialism.

I would not agree with this as a general statement, but I have heard what could be pretty close to that opinion. There is a video "Why Old Time" which does a good job of trying to define Old Time music and to distinguish it from Bluegrass. The gist of the argument is that Bluegrass is the "comodified" old time, for stage presentation, packaged for consumers, while Old Time, is, well, the rest. I am not strong adherent to this, for many reasons, (and this whole discussion is more appropriately a different thread), but I do see how someone might come to that conclusion.

[JeffD]

Just in the interest of accuracy, I would like to point out that the above Deliverance related joke has been quoted inaccurately.

It SHOULD be "Paddle faster! I hear BANJO MUSIC!".

Like there is a huge difference in the mind of most people.

[JeffD]

So back to the instrument question. Bluegrass is one of the big musical forms in our culture,...

I guess this is one of the questions I am disputing.

Thankfully there is a tradition of non-conformity in our country which presents a large enough market to support smaller manufacturers of alternative style instruments. Everyone can get what they want, you just might not be able to find it at the Guitar Center.

Thinking about this, isn't that kind of the point. There is not enough nation wide interest in bluegrass or especially in bluegrass instruments for any nation wide bricks and mortar store to stock them. Or enough interest in mandolins of whatever genre.

Most nation wide music stores will sell guitar, perhaps piano, and often school band instruments. Some even sell violins.

Internet works because it is at once ubiquitous and available to all niches. And there are individual stores and luthiers in specific areas that can make a living selling to our niche within a niche.

... so smile, be happy, and play what you like to play.

On this we can all agree, and hopefully even play it all together.

[doublestoptremolo]

I guess this is one of the questions I am disputing.



Thinking about this, isn't that kind of the point. There is not enough nation wide interest in bluegrass or especially in bluegrass instruments for any nation wide bricks and mortar store to stock them. Or enough interest in mandolins of whatever genre.

Yeah I think bluegrass is ultra niche. But the Guitar Centers around here do have some sad examples of mandolins and banjos, usually at least one of each.