Supplements for dealing with finger pain?

[Spencer]

Had pains in the first joint on my index finger of fretting hand, and my banjo playing friend recommended "hyben" powder. If I understand correctly, this is the dried, ground pods of the dog rose (rosa canina), which grows in the wilds in this part of the world, at least. The pain is no longer a problem, I use a small spoonful on my cereal every morning. I doesn't taste all that great, but I don't have the problem any more. Placebo or cure? I don't know. My friend says he can't pick banjo without it.

Spencer

[McIrish]

Thank you all for the suggestions. I will be talking to my doctor more about it. I hate taking medications of any sort unless they are pretty critical. One thing might be a factor in this as well. Earlier this year, my blood pressure got way out of control; 191/131 with a pulse of 45. That was a real shocker to me as I'm in pretty good shape and only 10 lbs from my optimal weight. I got put on Lisinopril. Maybe that has had an effect on my fingers or maybe its the blood pressure problems.
For those who are concerned about "internet medicine", I thank you. I am not going to make any life altering decisions based on a handful of opinions. I just wanted to see if anyone got real relief from supplements. It seems kind of like a mixed bag.
I really do appreciate everyone taking the time to relay your personal stories. Hopefully I can get this under control.

[Ddd]

Skip all these different treatment, skip your family doctor, and go to a hand surgeon.

[JeffD]

Take care of yourself - playing for a long time has many rewards, but you gotta get there!

I am always surprised when folks enthusiastic about music will mess around with a radial arm saw, or climb tall ladders, or ride fast motorcycles. I mean besides being hobby changing dangerous, those activities can really cut into your pickin' time.

[Jeff Hildreth]

Skip all these different treatment, skip your family doctor, and go to a hand surgeon.

I have had several serious hand and wrist injuries to include shattering and digit removal and reattachment. The worst ocurred right after I got serious about mandolin. I was learning classical and had just purchased two more instruments and , for fun, attended two clinics with David Grisman. I was also taking classical guitar lessons and owned five very fine guitars.

I was told I would never play again. I sold everything, then decided to get serious about
improving my situation. I fooled them all.. and regained about 90%..
However, only recently, 33 years later I decided to get serious about music again..
but as age will dictate.. no soap.. stiff and painful. Straight to the hand surgeon.
His comments.. 3 options... cortisone which probably won't work and did not.
Surgery which may or may not work and will be painful debilitating and a long re-hab period.
And then there is the third option.... live with it... as in suck it up.
That is what I am doing.

As to the joint supplements.. none was effective, matter of fact made it worse.
What has worked is toning up the muscles in the arm and shoulder.

Best of luck, hope you fare well.

[MysTiK PiKn]

I have been watching myself slowly decline due to lack of physical activity. In last couple months I have become a lazy couch potato watching tv, not eating properly, eating irregularly, eating too much carbos. And lately all these weird things are happening. I need to do some physical stuff like go for a walk, and then do some work in the house, in the garage, mow the lawn. I retired lately, and my first reaction was like - "what do I do now". My last job was physical. And I was in good shape. Now I have a beer belly, and little aches and pains, and too many fav tv shows, and a mando that's hyper extending my left hand, forearm, elbow, shoulder. This is really quite stupid, and nothing but gross laziness, and some parts are totally insane. I am becoming a degenerate bozo. I know how to eat well, but peanut butter is easier. Or frozen pizza. omg. I used to do cleansers, and go nuts on health foods. I used to tell other people to eat better and get some freakin exercise. And now my left arm is typing and shaking all at the same time. Well, I had cereal and coffee - so what should I expect. I need to use the info I accumulated over the years. This is simply reminding me of stuff I already know. And I need to do my "eternal youth" exercises, yoga stuff that works, and I know it works. Like an instant cure for me. I guess I chose to be here. This is going to change. I used to do the 'master cleanser' every few years. I have, or had, a good clean body. And it felt good. This mess just sux. I still eat not bad when I get to it; but it's inconsistent. It's ok to take a break; but not for weeks at a time. yeh, more beer. wow. and alcohol strips nutrients too. I just have to do the next right thing. And watch the eagle fly. It seems my problems started when I bought my mando; and it had troubles w setup; and I got lost in that - to my own detriment. I think I need to do a new setup on myself. That should be easy. If I don't pull out of this tailspin, I'm gonna crash - and it takes time to pull out of a tailspin. wow. Thanks for many comments. Thanks for listening. out. I got stuff to do; and I have the info with which to do it. It's all on me. Later.

[Bernie Daniel]

... Meanwhile, citizens of Utah should be aware that their Senator Orrin Hatch is largely responsible for supplements being unregulated in USA, at the cost of billion$ of buck$ and much misery. Y'all got a real doozy there, folks.

Untrue, but in any case this is not a forum for political opinions/discussions and that information is of no use to the OP.

[avaldes]

I don't know what your health plan is, but I would insist on referral to a hand specialist (rheumatologist, or actually some plastic surgeons specialize in hands). In these days of managed care and insurance plans designed to "default deny", your primary care physician may see his or her primary function as cost containment. As such, if the injury is not life threatening and does not affect your ability to earn a living and pay the insurance premium, he or she is incentivized to blow it off.

I would avoid a steroid shot (usually cortisone or similar). These provide temporary relief, but actually atrophy the joint. I have had that, and have tried MSM and glucosamine. Maybe a placebo effect. It may work for you.

I know how much our playing means to us, but you may consider a little time off. Some doctors will say six weeks, which is excessive. But a week or two may be reasonable.

[yankees1]

I don't think supplements are the answer. Check with Pete Martin at pete@petimarpress.com. He is very knowledgeable on musician injuries and what procedure might work to help you .

[allenhopkins]

...My doctor isn't too concerned, but he doesn't play a string instrument for part of his living...

Doctor: You'll have a slight limp, but I wouldn't worry about it.

Patient: Yeah, Doc, and if you had a slight limp, I wouldn't worry about it either.

[Bill Clements]

I sincerely hope the OP resolves the problem. That said however, and this is just my opinion... it's Jeremy's show here... I've always thought this forum would be better off using a variant of ...etc.

One of the Cafe's strengths is the willingness of it's members to offer help and guidance with playing and enjoying the instrument we all share a common interest in, whether it be music related, instrument related, or as in the case of this thread, compassionate suggestions to improve health based on personal experience. All go to the ultimate goal of raising the level of playing and musicianship, so I find no fault here. Just my .02 cents worth, no criticism intended.

Allen, I was able to put my left hand in my left pants pocket today for the first time in (9) weeks since surgery. I'm getting there.

[Bernie Daniel]

...Allen, I was able to put my left hand in my left pants pocket today for the first time in (9) weeks since surgery. I'm getting there.

Wow that makes you stop and think. Guess I'll stop complaining about the arthritis in my hands now!

[foldedpath]

One of the Cafe's strengths is the willingness of it's members to offer help and guidance with playing and enjoying the instrument we all share a common interest in, whether it be music related, instrument related, or as in the case of this thread, compassionate suggestions to improve health based on personal experience. All go to the ultimate goal of raising the level of playing and musicianship, so I find no fault here. Just my .02 cents worth, no criticism intended.

Of course we want to help each other. I think it's questionable whether much of the advice in this thread is helpful. It could be damaging if it leads people down a path away from professional medical help. Consider what's been recommended here to address the OP's finger pain:

* Glucosamine
* Chondroitin
* Omega 3 fish oil
* Acupuncture
* Gluten-free diet
* Copper bracelet
* Turmeric
* Reduced red meat diet
* Garlic
* Dried, ground pods of the dog rose

Now, also consider that these threads are archived on the Cafe, and will be pulled up any time someone does a search on "finger pain" instead of just asking about it in a new post. I don't think this is helpful, and has a fair chance of being harmful in the long run, which is why I mentioned the Chiff & Fipple forum policy about not offering direct medical advice because the mods can't evaluate or police it. I've made it a personal policy not to offer advice based on my own medical issues, except for saying "get thee to a doctor." Your mileage may vary.

P.S. I had a brain fart there in mentioning the name Jeremy, I meant Scott. That's a different forum owner.

[allenhopkins]

...Allen, I was able to put my left hand in my left pants pocket today for the first time in (9) weeks since surgery. I'm getting there...

Good news, Bill! Baby steps are still steps. Hope your progress continues unimpeded.

Aren't we all wise enough not to depend on a mandolin website for medical advice? I wouldn't go to a medical forum and ask what gauge of D'Addarios might ease finger discomfort.

Remedies that may work for some, could be useless, even harmful, for others. Professional medical advice is the best recommendation, but even that's not foolproof. (My own horror story: my wife's stroke -- luckily mild, fully recoverable, and now 16 years in the past -- was initially diagnosed in a highly rated ER as accumulated ear wax; dizziness, look into the inner ear, you can see how the mistake was made, but still...)

This thread showcases many experiences, generates many suggestions, some contradictory. Some problems are eased by several therapies, some stubbornly resist all attempts. The most we can say is that nearly all treatments suggested here have helped some people sometimes.

[foldedpath]

This thread showcases many experiences, generates many suggestions, some contradictory. Some problems are eased by several therapies, some stubbornly resist all attempts. The most we can say is that nearly all treatments suggested here have helped some people sometimes.

And how do we know which of those anecdotes are simply placebo effect? Or the body's normal self-healing process? We can't draw a direct line from "remedy X helped me" to "remedy X works for some people."

[k0k0peli]

And how do we know which of those anecdotes are simply placebo effect? Or the body's normal self-healing process? We can't draw a direct line from "remedy X helped me" to "remedy X works for some people."

Quite so. That's why clinical trials are hugely important. And clinical trials have NOT been done on the vast majority of supplements sold under unregulated regimes. Those that HAVE undergone trials with negative or indifferent results remain on the shelves, draining people's money and hopes and lives.

[Bob A]

Two things worth mentioning:

My wife, who does a lot of needlework, had hand pain. She started wearing gloves that had no fingertips; they provide a bit of support in that they're somewhat elastic, and they provide warmth which loosens joints and helps prevent injury. She wore them for a while and they eliminated her problem.

In the olden days, people would dip their hands into melted paraffin (wax) and let is remain on their hands until it cooled down. The application of warmth and the moisturising effect combined to relieve pain and hasten healing. Of course you don't want to burn yourself, so temp must be monitored. Here's a link: http://www.webmd.com/osteoarthritis/...topic-overview

Neither one of these is particularly invasive, or expensive, nor does it involve taking some kind of medication. I'd try the gloves, myself. There's a number of different types on the market, ranging from knits, lycra/spandex, to neoprene.

[Bernie Daniel]

Well I'll add this. I asked my personal physician what could be done for hand pain stemming for osteoarthritis and he recommended that I try an anti-inflammatory hand lotion called Voltaren Gel. The active ingredient is nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug named diclofenac sodium. My experience with it has been positive. It is a mostly odorless lotion that I put it on and rub in about 15 minutes before I want to play. It seems to help a lot. FWIIW. In fact my hands feel better all the time now and I only use it when I want to play mandocello, octave or guitar. For mandolin I am fine with out it.

[FLATROCK HILL]

Of course we want to help each other. I think it's questionable whether much of the advice in this thread is helpful. It could be damaging if it leads people down a path away from professional medical help. Consider what's been recommended here to address the OP's finger pain:

* Glucosamine
* Chondroitin
* Omega 3 fish oil
* Acupuncture
* Gluten-free diet
* Copper bracelet
* Turmeric
* Reduced red meat diet
* Garlic
* Dried, ground pods of the dog rose

Now, also consider that these threads are archived on the Cafe, and will be pulled up any time someone does a search on "finger pain" instead of just asking about it in a new post. I don't think this is helpful, and has a fair chance of being harmful in the long run, which is why I mentioned the Chiff & Fipple forum policy about not offering direct medical advice because the mods can't evaluate or police it. I've made it a personal policy not to offer advice based on my own medical issues, except for saying "get thee to a doctor." Your mileage may vary.

P.S. I had a brain fart there in mentioning the name Jeremy, I meant Scott. That's a different forum owner.

You make some good points. Yes, the safest, most prudent advice is 'see your doctor'.

It is not out of the realm of 'reasonable' however, to discuss other options such as those you listed above. I know nothing of dried dog noses (or whatever the heck that stuff is), but I can see no harm in any of the other suggestions. And if a placebo makes you feel better, where's the harm?

As for the 'medical advice' being permanently archived and possibly being uncovered in future searches...the above remedies may now be associated with treatment for "brain fart".

[foldedpath]

It is not out of the realm of 'reasonable' however, to discuss other options such as those you listed above. I know nothing of dried dog noses (or whatever the heck that stuff is), but I can see no harm in any of the other suggestions. And if a placebo makes you feel better, where's the harm?

The potential harm is when a placebo makes someone feel better (a purely psychological effect), when the underlying cause is a degenerative condition like arthritis, diabetes, significant joint damage, or other conditions that aren't going to get better on their own. Early treatment with conventional medical treatment might help in these situations. No guarantees, but at least you're dealing with peer-tested review of what will be prescribed as treatment.

Online forum advice to try various naturopathic aids and woo-woo pseudoscience is not going to help anyone in that situation.

[FLATROCK HILL]

The potential harm is when a placebo makes someone feel better (a purely psychological effect), when the underlying cause is a degenerative condition like arthritis, diabetes, significant joint damage, or other conditions that aren't going to get better on their own.

Ahhh, potential harm. If I'm not mistaken, that is what is enumerated in the background, by the announcers during the commercials for the FDA approved drugs.

[foldedpath]

Ahhh, potential harm. If I'm not mistaken, that is what is enumerated in the background, by the announcers during the commercials for the FDA approved drugs.

Those drugs have at least gone through clinical trials for initial release, and subject to FDA review for quality control. In theory at least, and it's not perfect. But it's the best system we've got.

I'll take that (and a trusted doctor's advice) over woo-woo alternative medicine advice on the Web, based on purely anecdotal reports and subject to the usual online crowd dynamics and confirmation bias, for one remedy or another.

The Web is a mixed blessing. We have unprecedented access to incredibly useful medical information, but we're losing the gatekeepers in traditional media that used to scan out the B.S. and commercial interests from the valuable information.

That's how we've reached this amazing point in our history as a species, where people no longer understand what herd immunity means for advances in vaccination, supported by popular media instead of actual scientific/medical knowledge. People are free to dive into whatever Internet-enabled cesspit of misinformation they want, when it comes to alternative medicine.

It's why I wish we had a "please, help each other but don't offer medical advice" rule on this forum. I want to help everyone here be a better mandolin player. I have zero interest in trying to solve anyone else's medical issues, because I'm just not qualified.

[allenhopkins]

...It's why I wish we had a "please, help each other but don't offer medical advice" rule on this forum. I want to help everyone here be a better mandolin player. I have zero interest in trying to solve anyone else's medical issues, because I'm just not qualified.

Well, guess I'm guilty of sharing my experiences dealing with my Sept. 2013 shattered left wrist. Frankly, I don't see too much harm in someone saying, "I had a similar problem, here's what I did, and here's what the results were."

As I said above, I hope we're all intelligent enough to separate anecdotal experience from professional analysis and treatment recommendations. Maybe not...?

[foldedpath]

Well, guess I'm guilty of sharing my experiences dealing with my Sept. 2013 shattered left wrist. Frankly, I don't see too much harm in someone saying, "I had a similar problem, here's what I did, and here's what the results were."

What if someone else with a shattered wrist might be a different age than you, with different local treatment options, different access to a doctor, different income bracket with much better or much worse health insurance, or no insurance at all? Would you give the same advice to someone who was 15 years old? Or in a different country?... remembering that this is an International forum.

C'mon... we're all different, in different circumstances. That's why general advice is useless (IMO), even if we're not getting into "alternative" treatment.

As I said above, I hope we're all intelligent enough to separate anecdotal experience from professional analysis and treatment recommendations. Maybe not...?

Look at the list of remedies I quoted above, and note that it's been expanded by a few other suggestions now. This just isn't the place for it.

You and I can share all the experience we have playing mandolins, and I would love to get together with you and play music sometime, if we ever managed to be in the same locale. Sharing our medical complaints and remedies, not so much. As I get older, I'm starting to hear enough of that from the people around me that I care about.

[mandowilli]

The potential harm is when a placebo makes someone feel better (a purely psychological effect), when the underlying cause is a degenerative condition like arthritis, diabetes, significant joint damage, or other conditions that aren't going to get better on their own. Early treatment with conventional medical treatment might help in these situations. No guarantees, but at least you're dealing with peer-tested review of what will be prescribed as treatment.

Online forum advice to try various naturopathic aids and woo-woo pseudoscience is not going to help anyone in that situation.

That sounds like medical advice to me.

Geez, the guy only wants to know if anyone has found supplements that have been effective.