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Thread: "Playing the circle of fifths"

  1. #51
    Registered User belbein's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Oh, Joel. You're going to be sorry you said this. You bring up a question that has always bothered me.

    When you say, "guide tones," and then circle notes, it's helpful and I can pretty well follow you.

    But in that second bar of "Developed in Improvisation," the F ... how do I know from reading those 2 1/2 bars that THAT'S a guide tone note, if I don't know the tune? Is there some simple rule, like "Guide tones are always the first note of a phrase," or maybe "Guide tones are the ones that are circled"?
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Quote Originally Posted by belbein View Post
    I'd suggest that a composer who used "music theory" as a generating tool would end up writing inhuman, unemotional crap.
    I don't agree. Its just a way to get started. One can be inspired by any aspect of music, and build from there.
    A person's ability to communicate is what makes it human and emotional.

    Quote Originally Posted by belbein View Post
    But in that second bar of "Developed in Improvisation," the F ... how do I know from reading those 2 1/2 bars that THAT'S a guide tone note, if I don't know the tune? Is there some simple rule, like "Guide tones are always the first note of a phrase," or maybe "Guide tones are the ones that are circled"?
    No need to know the tune. We are connecting chord tones. In this example, the 3rd or the 7th tones are the guide tones. The F is the 3rd of Dm7. In the bottom section, [which is an elaboration of the top section] the circled notes are the guide tones. A solo is built around them.

  3. #53
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Quote Originally Posted by Joel Glassman View Post
    No need to know the tune. We are connecting chord tones. In this example, the 3rd or the 7th tones are the guide tones. The F is the 3rd of Dm7. In the bottom section, [which is an elaboration of the top section] the circled notes are the guide tones. A solo is built around them.
    While I agree that knowing the chord tones, especially the 3’s and 7’s, is important, I try not to let it get in the way of the music. You can get quite mechanical that way. But saying that, I do believe it’s a step necessary to pass through in learning how to improvise. For me anyway.
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    formerly Philphool Phil Goodson's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Music theory is NOT a set of rules that you must follow when writing or playing music.

    Music theory IS a set of terms and relationships used to COMMUNICATE to others WHAT OCCURS IN MUSIC. (and often suggests its rationality)
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill McCall View Post
    While I agree that knowing the chord tones, especially the 3’s and 7’s, is important, I try not to let it get in the way of the music. You can get quite mechanical that way.
    To keep it from getting mechanical I practice chord movement up and down arpeggios a lot. So it becomes second nature. Never think about what the 3’s and 7's actually are though when playing. Just move towards them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philphool View Post
    Music theory is NOT a set of rules that you must follow when writing or playing music.

    Music theory IS a set of terms and relationships used to COMMUNICATE to others WHAT OCCURS IN MUSIC. (and often suggests its rationality)
    I agree and would add it is also about communicating with yourself.

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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    I guess I don't understand what chord tones are if they're not tied to a tune.

    This is where I always end up with music theory. (Also calculus.) (And biochemistry.) (And Wittgenstein.)
    belbein

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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    It's a like Brylcreem.
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Quote Originally Posted by belbein View Post
    I guess I don't understand what chord tones are if they're not tied to a tune.
    A tune is a melody. A chord progression is only the rhythm. You could play a different melody to it. Either written out or improvised.
    I'm talking only about exploring how notes sound played over a chord progression though. As a practice exercise. How does a note complement the chord its played against? There is a great deal to be learned about music in exploring this. As I said, devising a path through a progression using 3rds and 7ths is a strong way to make reference to the chords. [This is completely different from playing a G pentatonic scale over all chords in a G progression for example.] Once you get used to practicing playing to progressions, you are likely to recognize the progressions in songs you play and hear the commonality. Its a process of musicianship, and developing flexibility. When playing a solo on a tune, ideally you'd make reference to a tune's melody, while hearing the guide tone line, and improvise your own statement.

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Quote Originally Posted by John Ritchhart View Post
    It's a like Brylcreem.
    You mean, just like Brylcreem fills the space between hairs, music theory fills the space between the ears?
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Quote Originally Posted by Joel Glassman View Post
    take an interesting 4 bar progression. One chord per bar. Hum the 3rd or 7th note of the first chord for the entire bar. Then hum the 3rd or 7th note of the next chord for its entire bar. [Try to use the smallest possible interval between 3rds/7ths of the 2 chords.] Continue.
    The late jazz improvisation teacher Adolph Sandole called this the "Harmonic Line" (although it wasn't always the 3rd or 7th – it was whatever stood out and didn't jump around).
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bevan View Post
    The late jazz improvisation teacher Adolph Sandole called this the "Harmonic Line" (although it wasn't always the 3rd or 7th – it was whatever stood out and didn't jump around).
    Definitely valid, but the basic idea is to use "essential chord tones". The most essential way to define a chord is its major or minor aspect-the 3rd. Then its 7th. Fifths and roots can be used but they are more neutral sounding. Another important thing is "voice leading"--smooth transitions in the line. like this:
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    A connection of guide tones by whole or half step rather than jumping jumping around is desirable. Also moving toward the guide tones by using half step "approach notes". These are all jazz concepts but work for playing chord changes in any style. I've heard Jerry Garcia playing incredible solos using these concepts. I hope I've explained them well to belbein and anyone else who is interested. Reading "theoretical" descriptions of this process is sometimes hard to understand. If one can accept that, there is a lot to gain by osmosis.

    By the way, guide tones are most useful for moving through chord changes. On songs which are more basic [blues/folk styles/basic bluegrass etc] it might might be better to emphasize notes the chords have in common. Rather than how they are different.
    Last edited by Joel Glassman; May-11-2020 at 6:51am.

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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertram Henze View Post
    You mean, just like Brylcreem fills the space between hairs, music theory fills the space between the ears?

    The motto was Brylcreem: "A little dab'll do ya."
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Quote Originally Posted by Joel Glassman View Post
    "essential chord tones"...
    Something about what you said clicked with me. I've gone into it a little bit further and I have an inkling of a clue about what you're talking about. I'm starting to see it.

    I do wonder what you mean when you say "playing too progressions" and "cord progressions up and down arpeggios. " I know enough to know what the words mean but I can't visualize what the exercise would be.
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Quote Originally Posted by belbein View Post
    Something about what you said clicked with me. I've gone into it a little bit further and I have an inkling of a clue about what you're talking about. I'm starting to see it.
    "Essential chord tones" - Each chord in the progression of any song relies on at least three notes that make the chord ... those are the "essential chord tones". For example, if you are at Gmajor in a song, the essential tones are G, B, and D. If you are at G7, the essential tones are G, B, D, and F.

    Quote Originally Posted by belbein View Post
    I do wonder what you mean when you say "playing too progressions" and "cord progressions up and down arpeggios. " I know enough to know what the words mean but I can't visualize what the exercise would be.
    "Chord progressions up and down arpeggios" - Tim O'Brien has an arpeggio exercise that does just this, playing arpeggios over the I-IV-V-I progression in the keys of A, D, G, C, F, Bb, B, and E. I highly recommend working through it, but be careful as it is (for me) quite a pinky workout. Don't injure yourself by over working it. Here is an example, showing arpeggios over the keys of A, D and G:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    You can find .pdf and .tef versions of the entire set of exercises around the web. They've been posted in this forum, they've been at mandozine forever, and you can freely download them from numerous places including my site on this page.

    If you really want to get a handle on this, though, I'd recommend that you go to the Homespun site and purchase Mike Marshall's Arpeggio Workout. There is only so much you can learn from getting answers in forum threads, where opinions vary and topics wander and there is no actual in-depth course study to own and use to help you learn. NFI

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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Another idea ...

    Have you already worked through the lessons at mandolessons.com? No charge for those, and although you won't get the in-depth info and exercises on Arpeggios that you would get from Mike Marshall's videos, I notice that Baron has been building a "Music Theory" section of lessons, and he does deal with chord building which is essential knowledge, IMO. I haven't used those particular lessons at his site, but have used his site for tunes especially in the beginning. It's probably a good place to start on chord building. https://www.mandolessons.com/lessons/music-theory/
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    You have to be old enough to remember that, right, Mark?
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Was reading Joel's posts, and I see that in addition to "essential chord tones" he's focusing on 3rds and 7ths and discussing guide tones a bit. A great topic. I don't think of chords as simply "rhythm" though (I don't think Joel does either), even though a "rhythm player" on fretted strings generally is playing a lot of chords. I think of chords as harmony vs melody, not rhythm vs melody, and so does Joel, which is why he discusses the harmony of 3rds, and sevenths against a chord progression and the use of guide tones between notes and as ways to move between chords.

    This is all great stuff. Start with a solid knowledge of how to build chords and how to play chords.
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    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    You might start the arpeggios on the lowest available chord tone, which, of course, is not always the root. It can add to the pinky busting
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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Quote Originally Posted by John Ritchhart View Post
    You have to be old enough to remember that, right, Mark?
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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill McCall View Post
    You might start the arpeggios on the lowest available chord tone, which, of course, is not always the root. It can add to the pinky busting
    In Tim's particular fingerings for those exercises, the F progression and the Bb progression (and to some extent the C progression) gave me some pretty painful tendons relative to the pinky. None of those progressions are shown in the chart I posted above. I tend to over work my old hands sometimes when playing or practicing. A little pain is unavoidable, and helps to teach you when to change some mechanics or when to rest and heal, or how to find your limits, but be careful and don't over work it. If you do, take time to heal, and just be careful.
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    Registered User Old Man In's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    The motto was Brylcreem: "A little dab'll do ya."
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  23. #72
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    In Tim's particular fingerings for those exercises, the F progression and the Bb progression (and to some extent the C progression) gave me some pretty painful tendons relative to the pinky. None of those progressions are shown in the chart I posted above. I tend to over work my old hands sometimes when playing or practicing. A little pain is unavoidable, and helps to teach you when to change some mechanics or when to rest and heal, or how to find your limits, but be careful and don't over work it. If you do, take time to heal, and just be careful.
    I found the Bb and F scales starting on the middle finger to be very 'challenging' and practice that position starting from E on the G string and moving toward the nut, at a very 'moderate' tempo.

    As Bill Pearl said, in a slightly different context, you make there most progress by not getting hurt.
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    Was reading Joel's posts, and I see that in addition to "essential chord tones" he's focusing on 3rds and 7ths and discussing guide tones a bit. A great topic. I don't think of chords as simply "rhythm" though (I don't think Joel does either), even though a "rhythm player" on fretted strings generally is playing a lot of chords. I think of chords as harmony vs melody, not rhythm vs melody, and so does Joel, which is why he discusses the harmony of 3rds, and sevenths against a chord progression and the use of guide tones between notes and as ways to move between chords.

    This is all great stuff. Start with a solid knowledge of how to build chords and how to play chords.
    Thanks Mark. I find it much easier to look at the neck as a framework of arpeggio notes,
    than to see grids of every scale tone. The blank spaces being the location for "approach notes".
    Moving from a half or whole step above [or below] to arpeggio notes is a powerful directional sound.
    Also, a very interesting way to play rhythmic riffs is to play parts of the arpeggio structure.
    Sort of a sub unit of chords. Maybe move along the path up to the next octave. Directional rhythm...
    [I like to practice this by playing 2 note shapes across the neck.] These things aren't that commonly
    heard in "folk" music & could be the basis of an original style.

    Here are some examples of 2 note shapes in G at the nut.
    They're all G chords even if they don't contain the root. All shapes
    to riff on when a G chord is playing. For example: [with the scale tones noted]:
    Bottom strings======
    G & D open strings [1&5]
    B on the G string and the D open string [3&5]
    B on the G string and G on the D string [3&1]
    The open G string and G on the D string [1&1]
    Middle strings======
    the D open string and B on the A string [5&3]
    the D open string and D on the A string [5&5]
    G on the D string and B on the A string [1&3]
    etc etc. on the A&E strings
    [open strings droning against fingered strings sound good].
    Last edited by Joel Glassman; May-13-2020 at 7:36pm.

  26. #74
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    I think it depends on what you call "folk music", Joel. I play folk music, and I use the figures you speak of, but the folk music I play would be stuff that moves through early blues & ragtime, early country, some swing, etc. I like open voicings a lot and pair them with closed voicings up the neck, often using several voicings for a chord in one tune. Sometimes I'll use a C played 0-5-2-0 and sometimes a D7 like 5-0-0-2.
    Maybe in the same tune (like Kind-hearted Woman Blues in A) I'll use for D7 5-0-0-2 arpeggiated a bit, as well as 5-4-0-2 when walking up the D string chromatically from the E chord at 4-2-2-4, and at another place in that song the D7 is 5-4-5-x. Robert Johnson used a lot of chromatic runs, his famous turnaround is an example, and his tunes in A (like the aforementioned) make a lot of use of the chromatic shifts between Amajor and A diminished. I consider that folk music. Jimmie Rodgers, Willie Nelson, Bob Dylan (including a lot of his 'rock' music) are Folk music to me.

    Worlds continue to open up when you think about and experiment with chord tones and new voicings.

    --------
    Edit: Try playing the Robert Johnson turn around like this. Hit a good bump on the A chord like 2-2-4-x or 2-2-4-5, and follow it with this. x-5-0-5, x-4-0-5, x-3-0-5, 4-2-2-4
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    Registered User lowtone2's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Playing the circle of fifths"

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Man In View Post
    Hey! How did Fred Flintstone get in on this?
    A semi-interesting tie...Meet The Flintstones is a rhythm changes contrafact, and the B part is a straight circle of 4ths progression.

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