My Gibson Master Model Story

[goose 2]

Anyone who has played outside the confines of their humidity controlled picking room knows that mandolins change a lot and sometime over a short period of time. I may be in high and dry Colorado one week and the next week pickin in a tent during a Kansas thunderstorm. I often adjust my set up and most good musicians know how to monkey with their instruments when they need monkeying with to keep the playing and sounding just right as conditions change. Even subtle changes often make big differences that are easy to hear. Bigger stuff like fret work or nut adjustment and maybe even truss adjustments need to be made by guys like Dave Harvey. Even if a shop does a pro set up on the way put the door doesn't mean it won't need tweaking fairly soon.

[Big Joe]

A setup is not a static thing. It can vary with location, time of year, individual player preference, individual instruments, etc. Getting a mandolin properly set up for YOU by someone who can talk to you to get what you want or to help you find what you want is quite essential. No factory can provide that service on a production instrument, and many builders can build a very fine instrument, but that does not mean individual setups are their specialty. Just like getting a good suit fitted to you, an instrument requires the same for optimal performance. If you can be satisfied with mediocrity, then factory setup is fine. If you want your instrument to perform at its best, a great setup is certainly essential. Also remember that many can claim something, but not all can deliver.

As far as the tone-rite goes, I was a complete skeptic until I tested one. I did a report on that a few years ago on the café. I still have mine and use it regularly for instruments. I have both mandolin and guitar. It only makes sense to me, but if you want to be a naysayer, that is your privilege. However, until you try it you will have no idea. It was not placebo effect as someone suggested. I have used it on very high end instruments and inexpensive import instruments and in every case it helps. I cannot say the effect is permanent, but gives an improvement just as if it had been played regularly. You can see what your instrument will sound like in a couple years after a week of use. If you put your instrument away or leave it unplayed for a period of time, it can go to sleep a bit. You can either play it regularly until it opens again, or you can use a tone-rite. I know some who play from time to time, but will use it for a day or two before a gig to get it really open sounding for that gig.

I don't sell them and have NO financial interest in the company but do believe in the product. I have known Dave and worked with him for many years. He is an excellent mandolin guy in all respects. He does not recommend a tone-rite or anything else just for the placebo effect. He suggested it as a help to the customer and the customer received what he was hoping from that. Dave in not about to destroy his reputation over a "placebo" effect for anyone.

[Bernie Daniel]

Good post Joe. I said it before I'll say it again-- if you believe that a mandolin improves when it is played regularly then it is illogical (IMO) to think that a ToneRite would not have an effect on the mandolin's performance too. What does it matter how the strings are moved?

[Gary Hedrick]

Can you tell me the others? I am going to be needing this service before long and Dave was the first one I thought of. I would like to know some others. Thanks!

Lance

Well Lynn Dudenbostel, Randy Wood, Wayne Henderson are popular choices......I like Will Kimble also.....

and there are a number more I am sure

[Paul Statman]

(excerpt) What does it matter how the strings are moved?

The ToneRite vibrates directly onto the wood of the instrument. On mine, they rest against the saddle, and the vibration can be felt wherever you touch the instrument.

[sgarrity]

I bet that room is humming!

[terzinator]

The ToneRite vibrates directly onto the wood of the instrument. On mine, they rest against the saddle, and the vibration can be felt wherever you touch the instrument.

Nice to see another member of the Martin 000-15S club!

[Gary Hedrick]

Color looks close to the Feb. '23 Loars that are called "light tobacco" Cremona burst. I would add just about anyone who builds a F5 copy as able to do set ups correctly. That's the key is them knowing about mandolins not guitars or banjos or Les Pauls! That list is too long to list here.

The January 12th 1923 I used to own was just that light color also

[Paul Statman]

I bet that room is humming!

Funny you should mention that, Shaun. To the right of the Martin hangs a B&D 15.6v Dustbuster that is rocking as healthy a vibration as any of the instruments. "The motor seems a lot smoother now.. " (yeah, right)! Then again, who knows? They are used on electric guitars, too, you know!

[The Mandolin Store]

Well I wont say that I remember this specific instrument there are a couple of things worth noting here.

1 - strings are loosened when shipping instruments...........they get banged around and a bridge can move a little causing the intonation to be off a little. This is more likely, than we shipped it that way. Anyone who can tune an instrument can fix this problem easily.

2 - Dave said the humidity probably caused the bridge to need re-fit, I've seen this many times over the years. There's no way the instrument needed a bridge fit when it left TMS.

We have to remember that wood is like a sponge and the weather has a great deal of impact on an instrument set up. We keep our shop at 75 and the humidity around 50%

We're not perfect but we always give 100% to our customers and we makes things right when they are wrong.

The moral of the story here is that Dave Harvey is a great guy who treats others as he wants to be treated. He has gone above and beyond for us here at the store and also for our customers. I cant say enough good things about Dave as a person, and also the quality of Gibson mandolins under his leadership.

[Bernie Daniel]

Well Lynn Dudenbostel, Randy Wood, Wayne Henderson are popular choices......I like Will Kimble also.....and there are a number more I am sure

Indeed if you are in Cincinnati area Will Kimble does an excellent set up. He is pretty busy with building which is his day job -- that and rebuilding vintage automobile transmissions -- but it never hurts to ask. He did a set up for me once and it was great.

[Rick Lindstrom]

No one so far has demonstrated that a ToneRite has any measurable effect on instruments- positive or otherwise. However, I believe that a "shipping effect" on mandolins has been demonstrated, at least to my satisfaction.

Earlier in this thread, I posed the question: if player X sends his very expensive Gibson model Mk1 mod2 (or whatever) with which he is mightily displeased to the factory so that the resident mandolin wizard can bless it and it comes back sounding like a million bucks, why can't they just come from the factory that way to start with?

It finally struck me- the mandolin just needed to be shipped a couple of more times. When you buy a new one, it's been shipped at least once, to the dealer, and maybe twice, from the dealer to you. Apparently, shipping it back to Gibson, or somewhere, is what it takes. That's two more shipping episodes- out and back. So many disgruntled Gibson owners have related these same results that it has the Ring of Truth.

And heck, I'll bet every good sounding '24 Loar has been shipped a bunch of times! Except maybe the newly discovered one that was under the bed of the original owner ever since 1925. That one probably doesn't sound so good, but it will eventually because someone will buy it and it'll get shipped. The new owner may not think it's so great, for a Loar, so he'll sell it, and since it's a Loar, it'll get snapped up, and so it goes. Some day that one will finally sound great too because it's been shipped a bunch of times too.

It's not just Gibsons either. In reading this forum for many years, I've seen the same story repeated for other makes of mandolins, usually very nice, expensive ones from boutique makers.

I don't think I recall anyone mentioning this about a Dude or Gilchrist though, so maybe Lynn and Steve are in on the secret and ship their new mandolins around a few times before they sell them. Who knows, maybe they have a reciprocal agreement and ship mandolins back and forth to each other until they get that signature sound which all players seem to adore.

The message is clear folks- ship you mandolins around a bunch, and someday they'll all be wonderful. And UPS, Fed-Ex and USPS will prosper.

[Gary Hedrick]

1. I believe ToneRites work.
a. makes engineering sense to me
b. I have tried one and seen the difference
c. Placebo effect be damned ...I can hear it
2. Mandolins are organic (for the most part) in their materials
a. that means environmental factors and have an effect on them. The same forces that split tops, bend necks and cause
glues to fail can act in other ways on the materials of construction.
b. because they can grow and shrink with environment they can get out of "perfect" set up
3. The mere act of handling them can get them out of perfect setup.....banging around in a case....playing them ...bumping into things etc....your hand pressure on the strings.....hard chops....changing strings depending upon how you do it....etc.
4. A good set up is good for the playability and tone. The nut cutting....bridge fitting....bridge slot cutting.....fret dressing is best left to someone that knows what they are doing BUT as said above...if you are going to play the thing you need to learn how to check bridge position....raise and lower the action....because they are going to move on you.

and one other thing....Tone Guards work too.

and before I get jumped on......all of this is MY Opinion....period

[JeffD]

I think it shows certain things regarding mandolins are much like certain things about religion. Some people are going to believe they hear angels while others feel improved hearing is only provable through the rigorous application of science.....you know, the same way the rigorous application of science led the world to better appreciate great works of art. I'm kidding a little here, and for the record, I was a college science major. I am a FIRM believer in the scientific method.

Science is instrumental in determining if this phenomena is repeatable and perhaps how it works and what is happening. We don't need science to determine if LeoR is happy with the results. We don't need science to determine that while we are debating the science of it, LeoR is playing his now killer mandolin and just enjoying the potatoes out of it.

I am not advocating witchcraft, I am just trying to keep some priorities.

[Bernie Daniel]

Science is instrumental in determining if this phenomena is repeatable and perhaps how it works and what is happening.....

But this matter would be very difficult to test with any kind of rigorous scientific methodology. Almost by definition you would have to run the test of instrument's tone/projection, (before and after ToneRight) on the same mandolin. But that means doing the two evaluations several weeks or a month separated in time. I think it would be hard to definitively compare the tone of a mandolin (before and after ) when the two tests are that far apart temporally. You could easily compare recordings but that adds additional complications.

We don't need science to determine if LeoR is happy with the results. We don't need science to determine that while we are debating the science of it, LeoR is playing his now killer mandolin and just enjoying the potatoes out of it.

Indeed! Which is why it is better to declare this topic as resolved in the mind of the beholder!

[f5loar]

Not to throw stones here but usually the ones that don't believe in what a ToneRite can do also don't believe a BlueChip pick is any better than a 25 cent plastic pick and they tend to use a capo on a mandolin and think Black Diamond strings are the bomb and often confuse a Loar with a The Loar. Not sure if those same people believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny but......... oh well I made my statement. And if Gary Hedrick and Dave Harvey believes in it who am I to judge, so I'm siding with the believers and yes I got a ToneRite right after they came out because believe me I've got lots of mandolins sleeping right now as I type. I've got some that haven't seen daylight in decades. I have only been able to master picking one at a time.

[Bernie Daniel]

Not to throw stones here but usually the ones that don't believe in what a ToneRite can do also don't believe a BlueChip pick is any better than a 25 cent plastic pick and they tend to use a capo on a mandolin and think Black Diamond strings are the bomb and often confuse a Loar with a The Loar. Not sure if those same people believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny but......... oh well I made my statement. And if Gary Hedrick and Dave Harvey believes in it who am I to judge, so I'm siding with the believers and yes I got a ToneRite right after they came out because believe me I've got lots of mandolins sleeping right now as I type. I've got some that haven't seen daylight in decades. I have only been able to master picking one at a time.

Yeah it's not like ToneRite is a totally new idea anyway -- I remember going in to the Columbus Folk Music Center near High and Lane back in 1973 and there were three blue grass pickers, one of them was Sandy Rothman (who was a Bluegrass Boy in 1964) and Rob Griffin (who I think later played for a while with Vasser Clements) and another guy who's name I don't recall were talking about putting as small transistor radio inside of Rob's brand new Martin D-42 during the night to "break it in" faster. I thought it was a great idea at the time.

[f5loar]

And who remembers leaning your mandolin against a huge 15 inch JBL speaker while your 200 watt Yamaha Stereo plays Devo's "Whip It" 45RPM over and over on a continues loop tape. That would wake it up pretty quick but you got complaints from your neighbors!

[dcoventry]

And who remembers leaning your mandolin against a huge 15 inch JBL speaker while your 200 watt Yamaha Stereo plays Devo's "Whip It" 45RPM over and over on a continues loop tape. That would wake it up pretty quick but you got complaints from your neighbors!

Ok. This thread has had it's ups, it's downs, and it's sideways.

However, that quote from F5Loar is just darn, dang, damn funny.

Hat's off too you Sir. Hat's off.

[goose 2]

Then Rick let me be the first to report to you a problem with an instrument that I received brand new from Steve Gilchrist. It was a 2005 Model 5 which I had waited for for about 4 years to receive. The bridge did not fit the top very well and within a couple of weeks the bridge base cracked. I emailed Steve and he recommended shipping me a new bridge base. He was so familiar with the tops of his instruments that he felt he could shape a new one and ship it to me without actually having the instrument in hand. I happily played my MM (which was playing and sounding good with its factory set up) until the replacement bridge arrived. Very quickly I received the bridge in the mail and sure enough it fit the contour of he top like a glove. Instantly the mandolin played and sounded great. A marked tonal and playability improvement without shipping the whole instrument! Maybe its shipping the bridge that makes the difference and not the whole instrument. That could same some serious money in shipping costs.

I do have a peg winder which I got from Lynn which I think works a little better after I lubed it just a touch.

[Rick Lindstrom]

(EDIT)Maybe its shipping the bridge that makes the difference and not the whole instrument. That could same some serious money in shipping costs.

(EDIT)

You know, you may well be onto something. I propose that we send some Fender picks back and forth so they'll sound as good as Blue Chips (purportedly) do.

[M.Marmot]

Not to throw stones here but usually the ones that don't believe in what a ToneRite can do also don't believe a BlueChip pick is any better than a 25 cent plastic pick and they tend to use a capo on a mandolin and think Black Diamond strings are the bomb and often confuse a Loar with a The Loar. Not sure if those same people believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny but......... oh well I made my statement. And if Gary Hedrick and Dave Harvey believes in it who am I to judge, so I'm siding with the believers and yes I got a ToneRite right after they came out because believe me I've got lots of mandolins sleeping right now as I type. I've got some that haven't seen daylight in decades. I have only been able to master picking one at a time.

Come to think of it - i haven't seen a good capo argument in a while - we already have a Loar/The Loar thread going, tonerite's managed two, BlueChip picks are being increasingly referred to - conditions are set for the perfect storm.

If someone posts a 'Thile better than Monroe' thread in the bluegrass section that we had all better beware

[Bernie Daniel]

Yeah it's not like ToneRite is a totally new idea anyway -- I remember going in to the Columbus Folk Music Center near High and Lane back in 1973 and there were three blue grass pickers, one of them was Sandy Rothman (who was a Bluegrass Boy in 1964) and Rob Griffin (who I think later played for a while with Vasser Clements) and another guy who's name I don't recall were talking about putting as small transistor radio inside of Rob's brand new Martin D-42 during the night to "break it in" faster. I thought it was a great idea at the time.

Sorry to reply to my own post -- but my the short circuit in my memory apparently has been repaired overnight -- must have been the beer-marinated brats & sauerkraut that I had -- any way that is Rob Griffith not Griffin! Sorry Rob if you are out there somewhere.

[cayuga red]

Well I wont say that I remember this specific instrument there are a couple of things worth noting here.

1 - strings are loosened when shipping instruments...........they get banged around and a bridge can move a little causing the intonation to be off a little. This is more likely, than we shipped it that way. Anyone who can tune an instrument can fix this problem easily.

2 - Dave said the humidity probably caused the bridge to need re-fit, I've seen this many times over the years. There's no way the instrument needed a bridge fit when it left TMS.

We have to remember that wood is like a sponge and the weather has a great deal of impact on an instrument set up. We keep our shop at 75 and the humidity around 50%

We're not perfect but we always give 100% to our customers and we makes things right when they are wrong.

The moral of the story here is that Dave Harvey is a great guy who treats others as he wants to be treated. He has gone above and beyond for us here at the store and also for our customers. I cant say enough good things about Dave as a person, and also the quality of Gibson mandolins under his leadership.

Dave Harvey is indeed a great guy and a very talented one at that. I'll add that Dennis and his staff at TMS are second to none in customer service and commitment to the mandolin community.

[Bernie Daniel]

Dave Harvey is indeed a great guy and a very talented one at that. I'll add that Dennis and his staff at TMS are second to none in customer service and commitment to the mandolin community.

Verified 100% true! Both statements! The fact that they are working together is a really good thing for us modern day Gibsonites!